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Post by
341987
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Dragalthor
Are you positive it is a naive viewpoint?
Allow me to clarify then. Either naive, unknowledgable, or extremely close-minded. Is that better?Not to mention insensitive. When you suggest "Burning Israel to the ground," you're talking about people's homes. Many of whom were born there. Israel as a nation was founded in 1948. That was 63 years ago. Many of the people living there now were even born yet.
Many of those homes where homes of Palestinians before they were kicked out by the Israelis.
Personally I believe that the Israelis should be removed and sent back to the European countries they fled from, but I doubt that will ever happen.
Interesting book to read, The Lemon Tree (I'd link it, but can't find a synopsis site for it yet)
Well to be fair the Israelis didn't kick them out of their homes for the most part it was the British and their washing their hands of the whole situation that did that. As I don't have the time nor the inclination to précis this right now, I'll just copy and paste these couple of paragraphs about the foundation of Israel and the British involvement in it:
'The Jewish Legion, a group of battalions composed primarily of Zionist volunteers, assisted in the British conquest of Palestine. Arab opposition to the plan led to the 1920 Palestine riots and the formation of the Jewish organization known as the Haganah (meaning "The Defense" in Hebrew), from which the Irgun and Lehi paramilitary groups split off. In 1922, the League of Nations granted the United Kingdom a mandate over Palestine under terms similar to the Balfour Declaration. The population of the area at that time was predominantly Arab and Muslim, with Jews accounting for about 11% of the population.
The Third (1919–1923) and Fourth Aliyahs (1924–1929) brought an additional 100,000 Jews to Palestine. Finally, the rise of Nazism in the 1930s led to the Fifth Aliyah, with an influx of a quarter of a million Jews. This caused the Arab revolt of 1936–1939 and led the British to cap immigration with the White Paper of 1939. With countries around the world turning away Jewish refugees fleeing the Holocaust, a clandestine movement known as Aliyah Bet was organized to bring Jews to Palestine. By the end of World War II, the Jewish population of Palestine had increased to 33% of the total population.
After 1945, Britain found itself in fierce conflict with the Jewish community, as the Haganah joined Irgun and Lehi in armed struggle against British rule. At the same time, thousands of Jewish refugees from Europe sought shelter in Palestine and were turned away or rounded up and placed in detention camps by the British. In 1947, the British government withdrew from the Mandate of Palestine, stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews. The newly created United Nations approved the Partition Plan for Palestine (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181) on November 29, 1947, which sought to divide the country into two states—one Arab and one Jewish. Jerusalem was to be designated an international city—a corpus separatum—administered by the UN.
The Jewish community accepted the plan, but the Arab League and Arab Higher Committee rejected it. On December 1, 1947, the Arab Higher Committee proclaimed a three-day strike, and Arab bands began attacking Jewish targets. Jews were initially on the defensive as civil war broke out, but they gradually moved onto the offensive. The Palestinian Arab economy collapsed and 250,000 Palestinian-Arabs fled or were expelled.
On May 14, 1948, the day before the expiration of the British Mandate, the Jewish Agency proclaimed independence, naming the country Israel.'
Post by
Skreeran
Many of those homes where homes of Palestinians before they were kicked out by the Israelis.
Personally I believe that the Israelis should be removed and sent back to the European countries they fled from, but I doubt that will ever happen.Most of the Palestinians kicked out of their homes in the 1920s and 30s are dead or decrepit now.
The Israelis
born
in Israel have just as much as right to live there as the Palestinians born in Palestine.
And if you think that it'd never happen (on account of the expense, and the fact that the Israelis
won't
just get up and surrender their country), then it's not exactly a solution, is it?
We're trying to discuss a non-violent, constructive solution here, not a fanciful one. You might as well have said "I believe the Israelis and Palestinians should just learn to accept each other and live in peace despite their differences, but I doubt that will ever happen."
Post by
gnomerdon
I'd get the most hope if the US led this pressure, simply because of the support it gives Israel. Which is wishful thinking, again.
Ever wonder why the world trade center was attacked on 9/11?
People regard that place to be a place of trade and money. Osama felt that by destroying the two towers, it would reduce the funding that Israel gets from the United States.
I wonder what kind of lies are there when Israel releases their reports to the United States.
As long as Israel stands, the United States and Great Britain will always be in danger. Why? We are funding a terrorist group called Israel.
Post by
Azazel
You are not putting it into perspective.
Post by
gnomerdon
Skreeran, how would you go about this? I given you my solutions and you trash it. What are your solutions if you have any better ones?
I still don't understand how you say
Both sides are stubborn, arrogant, and do horrible things to each other. And both sides have innocent people who pay the price.
I do agree that innocent people do pay the price, but to say that both sides are stubborn is stubborn. I once had the same eyes as you, only to realize that I was wrong.
edit: Gonna take a break. I get too heated when I think about debates about Israel and Palestine.
Post by
Patty
I'd get the most hope if the US led this pressure, simply because of the support it gives Israel. Which is wishful thinking, again.
Ever wonder why the world trade center was attacked on 9/11?
People regard that place to be a place of trade and money. Osama felt that by destroying the two towers, it would reduce the funding that Israel gets from the United States.
I wonder what kind of lies are there when Israel releases their reports to the United States.
As long as Israel stands, the United States and Great Britain will always be in danger. Why? We are funding a terrorist group called Israel.
You simply
cannot
blame 9/11 solely on America's funding to Israel. Things aren't quite as binary as that. There are so many other factors in play.
Post by
Skreeran
First:
Ever wonder why the World Trade Center was attacked on 9/11? Because radical Muslims feel it's unfair that an ungodly, heretical nation like America is one of the richest, most powerful nations in the world, while the devout countries endure a state of near poverty (besides the oil tycoons).
They didn't just attack the World Trade Center because it's wealthy. They've attacked American ships and embassies, British buses and subways, trains and train stations in Spain, France and Germany. They hate that we're successful and blasphemous while they're poor and devout.
Second:
The threat of terrorism should not ever be a cause for us to stop something. That's the whole point of terrorism.
Post by
324987
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
I don't believe in ancestral right. My ancestors were English, but I don't claim any land in Britain. A few thousand years before that, they were mainland Europeans, but I don't claim any land in France or Germany or whatever. Several thousand years before that, they were Africans, but I don't claim any land in Africa.
And so on. I know that's what you meant by "as time goes on those rights to those lands gets less and less," but my point is that I consider the only definite right to land as that of birthright. If you're born somewhere, no one should be able to force you to leave.
Post by
Azazel
Nationalism is the measles of mankind.
Post by
Orranis
Interesting book to read,
The Lemon Tree
(
I'd link it, but can't find a synopsis site for it yet
got a link)
^^^^^
Definitely a great book to read for anyone who wants to see a more human view of the issue, from both sides.
Post by
292559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Set up an atheist hegemony to occupy, legislate and control Jerusalem, making it neutral ground. :D
I've thought about the whole issues before, and this really seems to be the best idea. My original idea was to allow all religions equal access to Jerusalem while putting it under the control of Israel, but this is probably a better idea.The problem is that both religions don't just want to visit Jerusalem, or even live in it. Both religions demand to
control
it, to own it.
Post by
138638
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
Technically the U.S. is the only superpower remaining after the collapse of the Soviet Union. I see China rising to be one in the foreseeable future, but not soon.
Post by
ExDementia
Technically the
U.S. is the only superpower remaining
after the collapse of the Soviet Union. I see China rising to be one in the foreseeable future, but not soon.
/flex
Post by
Skreeran
Technically the U.S. is the only superpower remaining after the collapse of the Soviet Union. I see China rising to be one in the foreseeable future, but not soon.Possibly, though China has the weakness that its economy is hugely dependent on foreign powers.
I mean ours is pretty heavily dependent on foreign oil, but China would whither away without us.
Post by
Monday
Technically the U.S. is the only superpower remaining after the collapse of the Soviet Union. I see China rising to be one in the foreseeable future, but not soon.Possibly, though China has the weakness that its economy is hugely dependent on foreign powers.
I mean ours is pretty heavily dependent on foreign oil, but China would whither away without us.
Aye. If they rise as a superpower, there will be serious diplomatic issues. Especially considering their economy is based on industry, but they're controlling their population, taking away a future workforce. There will be consequences.
Post by
138638
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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