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A Game of Thrones
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Post by
Gone
I never implied that anybody deserved it, just that several dumb decisions on the Stark side led to it. For example Cat freeing Jamie Lannister. Also I get how Robb was trying to be honorable marrying Jeyne Westerling, but he also made a few other dopey moves. For example putting so much trust in Roose Bolton
Also not to defend the Freys but they were pretty much caught between a rock and a hard place with that one. Tywin was the one who really orchestrated the incident. It would have been nice for Walder to just sent Robb a raven informing him of his decision to back the Lannisters and begging him to bend the knee. But by then the war was pretty much lost, Highgarden had joined the Lannisters and the Greyjoy attacked the North, neither of that was predicted.
People mostly hate on them to much because of the violation of the guest right, which is more of a taboo in the story world tbh, I don't think anybody cares much about that in and of itself. I mean if Danerys had pulled the same thing when Daario suggested it, we all might have cheered her.
And the fact that the old man just acted so %^&*ing smug about it. And yes I hope he gets what he deserves, I hope that he gets skull %^&*ed by Drogon before the end of the series...
But he wont, the good guys always die more horrible deaths than the bad in this series...
Honestly Robb should have just sworn fealty to Stannis like his father would have. They would have crushed the Lannisters and the Greyjoys never would have even made their move.
Post by
Haxzor
Lets just all be friends and hate Cat, because she's a %^&*!
Post by
Gone
That #$%^ing Cat...
Post by
Patty
Lets just all be friends and hate Cat, because she's a %^&*!
Because how dare she be a protective mother, oviously.
Post by
Skreeran
I hope Arya ends up leaving the Many-Faced God's service. Assassinating people is cool and all, but I want to see her avenge her family, not just be Nobody forever. Likewise, I hope Bran doesn't become a creepy immobile tree-man.
Post by
Gone
I hope Arya ends up leaving the Many-Faced God's service. Assassinating people is cool and all, but I want to see her avenge her family, not just be Nobody forever. Likewise, I hope Bran doesn't become a creepy immobile tree-man.
Yea I really am starting to hate what their doing with Arya's story. I want her to be badass, but not a sociopath...
Tbh I couldnt care either way about Bran... but I wanna see some dragon warging!
Also I recently read an extremely creepy theory as to what might have happened with Bran. After looking at this guys reasoning and rereading the chapter Im kind of willing to believe it. Ill copy and paste what he posted.
I recently reread the Bran and Reed chapters in the COTF caves with Bloodraven and a sneaking suspicion I had in my first read through has solidified into something I would be surprised to find out not to be true. This being: Jojen Reed was sacrificed to the Old Gods and then fed to Bran in the weirwood paste in order to awaken his latent ability to warg into weirwood.
Now, you have to read between the lines in order to come to this conclusion, but I believe the hints are disturbingly clear in retrospect. Jojen's deepening gloom and sense of his impending demise, Bran seeing ancient Men sacrificing humans to the Old Gods and then tasting their blood, Bran's initial perception that the weirwood paste had blood in it and his initial revulsion at its taste, and finally Bran's looking for Jojen and Meera as his last chapter in the book closes and not finding them. Also, to a lesser extent, the ancient bones of animals and humans scattered through the caves.
Add on top of this a broader theme in Martin's work; that magic comes with a price. Dany's sacrifice of her unborn child to "save" Drogo and burning of the witch to wake the dragons. The burnt human sacrifices that the Fire God's disciples give him for power. Craster sacrificing his sons to the Others. Bran having to partake in a human sacrifice for his expanded powers would fit perfectly into this pattern. Which is why, along with the context clues in his chapters, I believe Jojen was that sacrifice. Which is dark. And creepy. And kind of pretty freakin' cool.
Lets just all be friends and hate Cat, because she's a %^&*!
Because how dare she be a protective mother, oviously.
I mostly hate her for the way she treated Jon.
Post by
Patty
Why not hate Ned for being unable to keep his ^&*! in his pants, or for going far above and beyond societal norms for his bastard, or if he's not the father to not trust the mother of his five children and the love of his life enough at any point with the real truth? Or Westerosi society as a whole for vilifying bastards with a blame culture? Try to see things from Catelyn's PoV, and you'll understand why she acts so resentfully towards Jon. Cat was always thinking of the other woman. Jon was a constant reminder of Ned's infidelity. It's not hard to connect the dots.
Post by
Gone
Yea I get why she treated him like that, doesn't mean I'm going to like her though. Plus if she hadn't freed Jamie Lannister not only would the whole thing with the Karstarks not have happened, but Tywin wouldn't have planned out the Red Wedding either. Plus IIRC she was kind of a ^&*!@ to her brother. AND she started the entire Stark/Lannister war by jumping the gun and kidnapping Tyrion.
EDIT: Oh yea and her big advice to Ned was "trust Littlefinger"
Post by
Skreeran
Ain't nobody better be insulting Ned. He was an awesome dad, even if he made a few bad calls (trusting Littlefinger). Also, Sean Bean is a badass.
Post by
Gone
Sean Bean is a badass.
This. Even if he is a walking spoiler...
Post by
Skreeran
I remember they were taking about him in the LoTR behind-the-scenes, and how he would get air sick riding in the helicopter, so he just started climbing the cliffs to the shoot instead.
Post by
Gone
Hahaha seriously? Thats nuts, between him and the nazi stabbing Christopher Lee, LOTR had a Hell of a cast.
Post by
Patty
Ain't nobody better be insulting Ned. He was an awesome dad, even if he made a few bad calls (trusting Littlefinger). Also, Sean Bean is a badass.
My point is that if Ned's exempt from blame with parenting, Catelyn should be too. It's hardly like she's a worse mother than Ned was a father. Any mistakes in parenting were due to both parties - eg. Sansa's Disney Princess delusions; Jon's upbringing (all things considered, Jon had an extremely cushty life); Arya's rebellion from a young age; Robb unprepared for ruling etc. Not to mention that Catelyn has been the voice of reason for the Stark camp - it's just that Robb either ignored her or was not there to hear her advice most of the time, because his mother openly opposing him would have undermined his authority.
Yea I get why she treated him like that, doesn't mean I'm going to like her though. Plus if she hadn't freed Jamie Lannister not only would the whole thing with the Karstarks not have happened, but Tywin wouldn't have planned out the Red Wedding either. Plus IIRC she was kind of a ^&*!@ to her brother. AND she started the entire Stark/Lannister war by jumping the gun and kidnapping Tyrion.
EDIT: Oh yea and her big advice to Ned was "trust Littlefinger"
I like Edmure, but Catelyn was right a lot of the time. Edmure was a perfect summer ruler, but in the circumstances of the series, he was rather ineffective. He always needed other advisers, such as the Blackfish, to ground him. Catelyn's more pragmatic than her brother, and can see things from a more strategic PoV. Also the RW should really be spoilered, seeing as it's pretty much the biggest event in the series and has not happened in the show yet.
Catelyn was a pawn re: Tyrion, and we all know it now. Do you blame Ned for getting killed because he didn't know that he was being played? Should we blame Renly for underestimating his enemies? Why is it any different for Cat?
Post by
Skreeran
I don't blame Cat, but perhaps that's just because the Starks really remind NE of my item family. I have six siblings, for brothers and two sisters. My dad has a really strong sense of morality and tradition--even if he's had his own moments if weakness--and he's a real warrior type that looks like
this
.
My mom is the same kind of fussy, sentimental type, but she'd do anything for her kids.
That's why, as the firstborn son in my family, I really identified with Robb.
Post by
Gone
My point is that if Ned's exempt from blame with parenting, Catelyn should be too. It's hardly like she's a worse mother than Ned was a father. Any mistakes in parenting were due to both parties - eg. Sansa's Disney Princess delusions; Jon's upbringing (all things considered, Jon had an extremely cushty life); Arya's rebellion from a young age; Robb unprepared for ruling etc. Not to mention that Catelyn has been the voice of reason for the Stark camp - it's just that Robb either ignored her or was not there to hear her advice most of the time, because his mother openly opposing him would have undermined his authority.
I really doubt that Ned ever actually cheated on Cat, at this point I'm like 99.9% posotive that Jon is Lyanna and Rheagar's child If this was any other author besides GRRM I would be 100%. I mean Cat has no reason to suspect this, but we as the readers do, and so it makes it harder to excuse her behavior, knowing all the facts.
I really don't see any flaws in Ned's parenting, his character flaws are mostly his stubborn refusal to give up on his honor, which in the end was his downfall. But that only made him a better parent.
If Robb was more like Ned he would have pledged fealty to Stannis, the rightful king, in the beginning, and swept up the Lannisters that much sooner. Instead he chose to plunge the entire kingdom into an even bigger war, and now less than half of the small folk are going to survive the winter because of it. The entire realm is broken now thanks to the war of five kings, which is exactly btw, what the Others want...
Also the RW should really be spoilered, seeing as it's pretty much the biggest event in the series and has not happened in the show yet.
Its not like I said what happened, I really doubt anybody is going to gleam what it is from that, plus they built it up in the books too. very well though I spoiler tagged it.
Catelyn was a pawn re: Tyrion, and we all know it now. Do you blame Ned for getting killed because he didn't know that he was being played? Should we blame Renly for underestimating his enemies? Why is it any different for Cat?
Because Renly was dealing with the supernatural, and Cat is much, much,
much
less likable than Ned as a character...
I can forgive most of what shes done. I can even understand the way she treated Jon, although it still makes me dislike the character. But freeing Jamie Lannister was just such a big domino leading up to the Red Wedding that I can't help but blame her. I mean what did she think would be accomplished by that? She flipped out when she heard Bran and Rickon were dead, and did something insanely stupid. She betrayed her son, her king, and her country. And they all paid for it.
EDIT: I also blame Robb and Edmure just a little bit. Robb for not filling Ed in on his plans, and Ed for not following Robbs orders to the letter. I cant decide whos fault it was that Tywin never crossed the fork. Probably Robbs, Ed was just showing initiative.
Post by
Patty
I don't think that Jaime's release was ever a huge factor, tbh. Think about it, if Jaime was still imprisoned in Riverrun
or
taken to the Twins with Robb's Northern army, Jaime would likely still be safe. If at the Twins, well, Jaime isn't killed in the RW because he's kept in the dungeons. The Freys get the reward not only for killing the Starks but for also capturing Jaime alive. In Riverrun, I don't think the Blackfish would actually kill Jaime as a captive until the Lannister host descended, and even if he did Tywin would basically be in the same situation as just before his death, without the heir he wanted. There is also the chance of Jaime escaping or actually surviving the fall of Riverrun. If Brynden died quickly, the Tullys would break immediately. Either way the RW is a massive profit for Tywin; the Boltons and Freys would still have defected, even if the Karstarks didn't.
Post by
Gone
I don't think that Jaime's release was ever a huge factor, tbh. Think about it, if Jaime was still imprisoned in Riverrun
or
taken to the Twins with Robb's Northern army, Jaime would likely still be safe. If at the Twins, well, Jaime isn't killed in the RW because he's kept in the dungeons. The Freys get the reward not only for killing the Starks but for also capturing Jaime alive. In Riverrun, I don't think the Blackfish would actually kill Jaime as a captive until the Lannister host descended, and even if he did Tywin would basically be in the same situation as just before his death, without the heir he wanted. There is also the chance of Jaime escaping or actually surviving the fall of Riverrun. If Brynden died quickly, the Tullys would break immediately. Either way the RW is a massive profit for Tywin; the Boltons and Freys would still have defected, even if the Karstarks didn't.
Yea but one of the big reasons that Robb had to go lick Walder Frey's ass was because he lost the Karstarks. And if Jamie was kept at Riverun then he might have been killed as soon as word came down about what happened.
I mean I blame other people too, for example Robb for putting so much trust in Count Dracula's creepier cousin, despite the very long history of hatred his house had for the Starks. But cats actions were the only ones that were done not out of stupidity or just being a pawn, hers was actually a conscience betrayal.
One other thing I don't like about her; I like a character with a strong maternal instinct, but I hate it when an author tries to use that to excuse it when a character's "mother instinct" causes them to make decisions to the detriment of every other character, except for their child.
Shes just not that likable a character to me. Not that Im one to talk I suppose, Im always the one defending the Ironborn, even though most other fans hate their guts...
Post by
Gone
First season 3 teaser
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsmUpYIA99o
Post by
1063203
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
End of March.
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