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Poll: Favorite lore villain
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Post by
Skreeran
I don't hate Sylvanas. I feel pity for her.
meh, I used to pity her (back on warcraft 3) but after the invasion of gilneas, and andorhal, let's just say she's crossed the
Moral Event Horizon
waaaay too many times. Basically if she sees a line that shound't be crossed, she will gleefuly carwheel over it. I dunno if I should be mad at the writers, since she used to be a tragic hero for me back on warcraft 3.
but one thing is clear, the pity pretty much vanished after she crossed the red line.I totally don't hold Gilneas against her. There were plain and clear reasons for going in, and she wasn't overly cruel (use of the Blight aside, but that was more for efficiency's sake than cruelty), and she even let Crowley go.
Andorhal is a bit different, but that really makes sense from a logical perspective as well. The Forsaken are a war machine. If you have a part that is broken, you can replace it, or you can fix it. Sylvanas could have killed Koltira for incompetence and/or treachery, and replaced him with someone else, but instead she saw fit to "fix" him.
You must remember that the Forsaken are creatures of logic, not passion or morality.
Post by
Patty
....If I invaded Gilneas and used the blight when I was explicitly told not to, would you Hold It Against Me?
Post by
Skreeran
....If I invaded Gilneas and used the blight when I was explicitly told not to, would you Hold It Against Me?Come now, that's a bit of an unfair summation.
The Gilneas invasion: Totally logical. (Besides the emotional need for a purpose.)
The use of the Blight: Forbidden by the Horde, but also logical. When you're wanting to clear a place out of people, what's the most efficient way of doing it?
The Forsaken are not limited by morality or feelings (besides a few exceptional cases). Just results.
Post by
Patty
WHOOOOOOOSH!
I was obscure, I know...
:(
But I do agree with you, the Forsaken are highly pragmatic.
Post by
Skreeran
If I said you had a great body, would you so on and so on?
Post by
Patty
If I said you had a great body, would you so on and so on?
Maaaaaaybe.
Edit:
can skreeran get on vent and make love to me already
Post by
Rankkor
I don't hate Sylvanas. I feel pity for her.
meh, I used to pity her (back on warcraft 3) but after the invasion of gilneas, and andorhal, let's just say she's crossed the
Moral Event Horizon
waaaay too many times. Basically if she sees a line that shound't be crossed, she will gleefuly carwheel over it. I dunno if I should be mad at the writers, since she used to be a tragic hero for me back on warcraft 3.
but one thing is clear, the pity pretty much vanished after she crossed the red line.I totally don't hold Gilneas against her. There were plain and clear reasons for going in, and she wasn't overly cruel (use of the Blight aside, but that was more for efficiency's sake than cruelty), and she even let Crowley go.
Andorhal is a bit different, but that really makes sense from a logical perspective as well. The Forsaken are a war machine. If you have a part that is broken, you can replace it, or you can fix it. Sylvanas could have killed Koltira for incompetence and/or treachery, and replaced him with someone else, but instead she saw fit to "fix" him.
You must remember that the Forsaken are creatures of logic, not passion or morality.
sorry dude but I'm not a forsaken, thus I don't judge them by THEIR standards, but by mine, and by mine, killing civilians=NO NO. Enslaving Civilians= NO NO. Killing civilians and raising them as undead= SUPER BIG NO NO NO NO.
I don't blame them for invading gilneas, that zone has a very strategical importance, and it was indispensable that they grabed it. If waging their war they had slain only the few remnants of gilnean military, I would had been ok with it, because that's what soldiers are for, and in war one side has to win and one has to lose.
but they didn't just targeted the soldiers, they went after the civilians, enslaving them, killing them once they outlived their purpose, and then raising them as new forsakens. And THAT is what I cannot forgive.
same deal on Andorhal, she killed alliance farmers and raised them as undead.
Now, you will tell me that "they need to reproduce" but here is where I say: The knights of the ebon blade are identical to the forsaken, they are humanoid undead people with free will, and yet they admit that what they have is a curse and don't spread it arround.
to me the forsaken act like an irresponsible man that just discovered he has aids/herpes/clamp/gonorhea/insert sexualy transmitted disease here. A responsible and noble man would refuse more sex to ensure nobody else suffers from what he suffers. A scum piece of sh1t would had sex with as many women as posible to make sure they too die with him (or live a miserable diseased life as his)
this is what the forsaken are doing, rather than making sure their curse dies with them, they are spreading it, and I cannot and will NEVER condone that, nor aprove it, nor excuse it, nor forgive it. The worst part is that the horde is letting it happen. :S
Post by
Skreeran
I disagree, but it's clear that I won't sway you, so I don't think I need to be involved in the argument any longer.
Post by
Rankkor
I disagree, but it's clear that I won't sway you, so I don't think I need to be involved in the argument any longer.
I'm curious to see your point of view though, why exactly do you think it's ok for the forsaken to spread their curse unto UNWILLING victims?
I mean, the blight is already bad enough but I'll admit it's a damn effective weapon in a time of war. But killing others and raising them as undead is like "Kicking the dog" to me.
again check my example of the guy with aids. Would you cheer for a guy with aids who'se sole purpose in life is to infect as many people as posible? or the one that ensures his disease dies with him?
same deal, cheer for the knights of the ebon blade who know they are cursed and are in no hurry to spread their curse onto others and instead bust their asses on the alliance and horde to make the world better in the only way they can orrrrrr
cheer for the forsakens who'se new purpose in life is to kill as many people as posible and doom them to an existance of misery and pain as a living MONSTER.
Post by
Skreeran
I don't think it's okay. I think that morality is relative.
From the Forsaken's perspective, they aren't being malicious, or cruel; they're merely taking the most expeditious route to their objective. I don't think that really qualifies as being a villain.
From my perspective, yes, they are killing innocent people, but, being able to see their perspective, I do still pity them. They aren't insane, and they aren't evil, but they're sad, and I wish that things hadn't happened to them like they did.
Post by
KingdomKnight
I don't actually know that much about C'thun or Yogg'saron. I find the Old Gods as a whole interesting, but separately not nearly as much. I am only interested in how they fit into the scheme of things. Azshara, however, I find intriguing. The recent events with Neptulon and the Naga have only had me further intrigued. This is a women who had an entire race enslaved by her beauty. She dared to dance with what is metaphorically the devil. She is one of the rare individuals who both Sargeras and the Old Gods thought to use to their own advantage. What has she been up to for the last 10,000 years? Did she really make a deal with the Old Gods? These are just a couple questions that come to mind concerning her. We can only imagine what she will do to Azeroth once her attentions are turned on us.
Post by
Morec0
I don't actually know that much about C'thun or Yogg'saron. I find the Old Gods as a whole interesting, but separately not nearly as much. I am only interested in how they fit into the scheme of things. Azshara, however, I find intriguing. The recent events with Neptulon and the Naga have only had me further intrigued. This is a women who had an entire race enslaved by her beauty. She dared to dance with what is metaphorically the devil. She is one of the rare individuals who both Sargeras and the Old Gods thought to use to their own advantage. What has she been up to for the last 10,000 years? Did she really make a deal with the Old Gods? These are just a couple questions that come to mind concerning her. We can only imagine what she will do to Azeroth once her attentions are turned on us.
Had Knakk not been the one to write about her she probably would have been better, but I agree. The only thing that keeps her from being a superb villian, in my opinion, is that she's a pawn. The Lich King and Deathwing - I hope to god - refused to let other beings shape their destiny, and so used their considerable power to work against them.
And to anyone who can that reads this: we should make a poll for the fan-made villians of this forum.
Post by
Adamsm
Eh, I don't know; we might see her as a pawn, but during WotA it was mentioned at that point Aszhara's magic was equal to Mannoroth and Archimonde; 10 thousand years later with an Old God upgrade, I'm still betting on her being the most powerful magician on the planet.
Post by
Morec0
Eh, I don't know; we might see her as a pawn, but during WotA it was mentioned at that point Aszhara's magic was equal to Mannoroth and Archimonde; 10 thousand years later with an Old God upgrade, I'm still betting on her being the most powerful magician on the planet.
You make a point, but remember she never was the head-honcho of the events going down in Zin'ashari. It was all about Sargeras. It dosn't matter how powerful you are, if you serve another force that is using you to their own ends, you're a pawn.
Post by
Adamsm
Thing is though, she never thought of herself as a pawn; had the plan succeeded, to her mind at least, she was going to end up as Sargeras consort, as only the Lord of the Legion was 'perfect' enough for her. And Xavius may have been attempting to manipulate her, but he only rarely succeeded; without her, the Highborne would have never gone through with the Portal spell after all or fight alongside the Legion forces.
Post by
Morec0
Thing is though, she never thought of herself as a pawn; had the plan succeeded, to her mind at least, she was going to end up as Sargeras consort, as only the Lord of the Legion was 'perfect' enough for her. And Xavius may have been attempting to manipulate her, but he only rarely succeeded; without her, the Highborne would have never gone through with the Portal spell after all or fight alongside the Legion forces.
And the only reason she agreed to go through with it herself was because she had become infatuated with Sargeras. I understand the point you are trying to make, but in the end all roads lead back to one place: Sargeras. He was the puppetmaster controlling those who were controlling others. Even Xavius, which you noted had been manipulating Azshara at somepoints, was a slave to the Lord of the Legion. Whether or not they were aware or thought of themselves as puppets is besides the point, we know they were.
Post by
Adamsm
From the quest:
The Offering to Azshara
Queen Azshara yells: Who dares oppose Queen Azshara? You will soon beg for a swift death!
Malfurion Stormrage yells: It's over Azshara! You and your naga will return to the bottom of the seas where you belong!
Queen Azshara says: Ah... Malfurion Stormrage. I'd hoped to keep you occupied for a little longer. It was my goal to keep you away from Hyjal while my allies attacked. It would seem I have succeeded.
Queen Azshara says: I've no need to fight you, for it appears I've already won. You cannot stop our attack on Darkshore and save Hyjal at the same time!
Queen Azshara leaves and despawns.
Malfurion Stormrage says: She's not lying. Nordrassil is in danger. I must make haste and prepare for Hyjal's defense.
Malfurion Stormrage says: It will be up to you to use the Horn of the Ancients and stop Soggoth's return.She's working with the others, and not really in a pawn state this time.
Post by
Morec0
From the quest:
The Offering to Azshara
Queen Azshara yells: Who dares oppose Queen Azshara? You will soon beg for a swift death!
Malfurion Stormrage yells: It's over Azshara! You and your naga will return to the bottom of the seas where you belong!
Queen Azshara says: Ah... Malfurion Stormrage. I'd hoped to keep you occupied for a little longer. It was my goal to keep you away from Hyjal while my allies attacked. It would seem I have succeeded.
Queen Azshara says: I've no need to fight you, for it appears I've already won. You cannot stop our attack on Darkshore and save Hyjal at the same time!
Queen Azshara leaves and despawns.
Malfurion Stormrage says: She's not lying. Nordrassil is in danger. I must make haste and prepare for Hyjal's defense.
Malfurion Stormrage says: It will be up to you to use the Horn of the Ancients and stop Soggoth's return.She's working with the others, and not really in a pawn state this time.
Debateable: Old Gods and the like. But I suppose I have to concede that point.
Post by
Skreeran
Knaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaak!
Post by
Patty
Knaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaak!
My least favourite lore villain. :P
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