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Bear Survivability - Agility vs Dodge
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Post by
hashmel
Everyone seems to have forgotten the change to parry mechanics that went with the rest of the Cataclysm stat overhaul.
Parry – Parry no longer provides 100% avoidance and no longer speeds up attacks. Instead, when you parry an attack, it and the next attack will each hit for 50% damage (assuming they hit at all). In other words, Dodge is a chance to avoid 100% of the damage from one attack, Parry is a chance to avoid 50% of the damage from two attacks, and Block is a chance to avoid 30% of the damage from one attack.
I'd imagine the reason you still receive the stacking debuff from attacks like Sunder is because you're not fully avoiding the hit, just taking less damage from it and the following attack. Dodge on the other hand has no damage applied so the debuff associated with the damage isn't applied either.
In regards to the Paragon tank discussion, can't find the thread where it was plainly spelled out over the course of a few pages but it basically amounts to what's been said here as well.
Lets take ICC for example and Plagueworks specifically. Back when it was in game only a week or two people may have been able to down Festergut and Rotface in gear from the Lower Spire but they were too undergeared to reliably stay alive on Professor Putricide so the tanks, their job being to stay alive, would gem stamina to try and compensate for this.
Now look later when guilds were even selling Kingslayer to a few empty raid spots. Putricide was no challenge with everyone having equal or better gear than what he dropped and didn't need to worry about survivability much beyond not being stupid. At that point you can afford to gem for something other than pure survivability like agility for threat, damage, mitigation, and avoidance. You're not going to die, you'll kill things quicker, you'll set a high threat ceiling sooner, and maybe even give the healers some time to dps like an overgeared resto in heroics back in WotLK.
Unless you're in the 1% going for world first kills then you really don't need that much extra survivability so wouldn't the other 99% rather have a more well-rounded build than an extra 10k health they can't even hit the boss with?
As for dodge vs agility when it's a matter of one or the other such as gemming, agility hands down.
Dodge grants a bit more avoidance per point but agility has it beat on threat, damage, mitigation, and self heals if you've taken Nature's Instinct and by the time you've got enough gear with sockets to question which one you'll be riding diminishing returns enough for the avoidance difference to be so negligible that it's tossed out the window.
Now if you'll all excuse me while I return to hibernating under a rock.
It really must have been a while for you ;)
Edit: It has in fact, stopped playing about a week into Cataclysm, even bought the damn thing. Well apologies for that oversight. Carry on. =P
Post by
Raleandris
Everyone seems to have forgotten the change to parry mechanics that went with the rest of the Cataclysm stat overhaul.
O.o
It
really
must have been a while for you ;)
That whole change was reverted due to something about not being able to differentiate swings after a parry if you dodged or... something, it was a big mess. Either way, Dodge and parry are both pure avoidance, the same as in wrath.
Post by
Thror
Everyone seems to have forgotten the change to parry mechanics that went with the rest of the Cataclysm stat overhaul.
Parry – Parry no longer provides 100% avoidance and no longer speeds up attacks. Instead, when you parry an attack, it and the next attack will each hit for 50% damage (assuming they hit at all). In other words, Dodge is a chance to avoid 100% of the damage from one attack, Parry is a chance to avoid 50% of the damage from two attacks, and Block is a chance to avoid 30% of the damage from one attack.
I'd imagine the reason you still receive the stacking debuff from attacks like Sunder is because you're not fully avoiding the hit, just taking less damage from it and the following attack. Dodge on the other hand has no damage applied so the debuff associated with the damage isn't applied either.
This is exactly the reason why i thought that you still get stacks from parried attacks. But then i was not really sure if it actually works like that, so i started checking the wikis and stuff, and they all said that Parry is still simply Dodge with a different name. So i revoked the statement.
...i think it is pretty stupid that there are two identical types of avoidance, and there is nothing that differentiates them. At least they could do something like an ability that could only be activated after a Parry, or something. Something like old Rune Strike, but it was a bad idea to put the most significant threat generating tool under such condition.
Now if you'll all excuse me while I return to hibernating under a rock.
Glad that you stopped by, hash :) Hope you're doing well!
Post by
LookOut
*wave* hi Hashmel!
Post by
pelf
Hiyo!
Post by
moonstrike
hashmel:
Question for u m8..
Sence u seem like a smart guy.. Whats the diffrence from when Paragon takes a new boss down.. to when you and me (if u where playing) are ? ..
We all are not 100% of what todo. trying diffrent styles and ways to kill the basted.. And to be honest. i cant se the diffrence..
I got the comment "stop mimic".. and in the same thread.. ppl are going.. "nonon. dont stack stam.. do as me.. stack agi.. "
arent u like saying with that comment.. "dont do as the best.. do as a noob.." ?
Am not english.. so english isnt my main language. so there mite be a little problem for me to understand it correct.. but thats how it sounds in my ears.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Raleandris
10k health vs 2% dodge? I'm almost certain it's more than that.
Arcanum of the Earthen Ring
vs
Arcanum of the Ramkahen
Greater Inscription of Unbreakable Quartz
vs
Greater Inscription of Shattered Crystal
10x
Solid Ocean Sapphire
vs 10x
Delicate Inferno Ruby
120 stam (from professions) vs 80 agility
Tia's Grace
and it's ilk vs
Leaden Despair
and etc. x2
So we get 1739 stamina using 2 346 stam trinkets (JC trinket and Leaden Despair) out of bear form and unbuffed. In bear form with kings it's worth approximately 2100 stam, which is approximately 21,000 health.
If we stack agility, we have about 1255 agility assuming stacked Tia's Grace and with the average agility granted from
Left Eye of Rajh
with kings. This comes out to about 5% dodge (
agi -> dodge conversion here
) before DR.
I'd say that's a pretty big trade-off depending on how extreme you are with your stam/agility stacking.
Edit: Gem counts were based on the average amount of gem slots per gear piece at this tier (1 non-meta in the head, one for shoulders, 2 for chest, 1 for gloves, 2 for belt, 2 for pants, and one in your boots). Of course, I doubt ANYONE is this extreme with stam/agility stacking, but there are large benefits both ways. A mix will bring about the best results, but don't think that it's only a minor addition to your gear, because the reality is that it's not.
Post by
Thror
Hello guys? Stacking agility has already been explained on
page 1
of this topic,
if you would bother to click at the links i have given
. The reason why some tanks go Stam and some go Agility is explained there as well. It's not like i am ignoring Moonstrike for no reason at all.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
144872
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pelf
stamina=agility
Well that's not true because when I put stamina on, my health goes up and when I put agility on it doesn't...
Post by
LookOut
Arcanum of the Earthen Ring
vs
Arcanum of the Ramkahen
Greater Inscription of Unbreakable Quartz
vs
Greater Inscription of Shattered Crystal
a tank wouldnt be going for those agilty enchants anyway, and the 10k v's 2% is based on gemming choices not enchanting. Trinkets are also a dime a dozen and swapped about without the need to re-gem or re-enchant, which is why tanks keep multiple trinkets and swap depending ont he fight (also pre raid there is only 1 real stam trinket anyway so you wont have 2 to begin with)
Indeed. The stam enchants have dodge, so it's best not to ignore those, even when stacking agi (except maybe if you're a scribe, and even then ...).
About the stam trinkets pre-raid, JCs can get the Earthen Guardian world drop (which was my first 346 item actually :D).
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Raleandris
stamina=agility
Well that's not true because when I put stamina on, my health goes up and when I put agility on it doesn't...
you know as well as I do that taken out of context that quote of mine makes little sense
Which was the point.
Edit:a tank wouldnt be going for those agilty enchants anyway...
I would disagree, and even the Feral guide over at EJ suggests it as a possiblity, as well as the first post Thror linked on the first page. I see it as a choice, and it boils down exactly to the same thing that we've been rehashing the entirety of this thread: dying too much? Go for the stam enchants. Not dying? Agility enchants.
Post by
pelf
ilu parra
Post by
Azrile
Quick question about this then... would it be better to get agi rings and amulets then? or stick to tank style (str/sta/dodge) rings and amulets?
Do not even touch the Str things.
QFT. Agi = dodge (and AP and crit, omnomnom), AND you can reforge a secondary stat to dodge as well!
Stop living in WotLK
Wasn´t there a str cloak ( i think a rep reward) that actually came out above the agi one for bear tanks? But yeah,, the simple rule is always use AGI and never STR. I think that one exception happened because every agi cloak had terrible secondary stats.
Post by
144872
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
curlymon
There is a rep tanking cloak but it came out on top only if you were a stam stacker... so guess what? Nope no BiS str rep cloak.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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