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10.2.6
How do you define 'marriage'?
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Post by
MyTie
@MyTie- how do you view marriages in religions other than your own, out of curiosity? Many religions outline different responsibilities and relationships between husbands and wives. Some allow polygamy. Some religions do allow homosexual marriage. Do you believe that marriages in other religions have any validity, or just Christian marriage?
Validity? What does that mean? If I view a "valid" marriage as one described in my religion, then what do you think I think about any other religion? Probably don't feel those are "valid" marriages. I don't feel they are "valid" religions either.
But, what is the difference between "valid" and "free"?
I think it is everyone's right to believe whatever they want to believe, and believe marriage is whatever they want to believe, without governmental regulation or penalty. I know that I have as little possibility convincing people that their views are right or wrong as they have of convincing my views are right or wrong. So, live and let live. Practice marriage however you want. I think you're wrong if you don't do it the way the Bible tells you to, but I'm cool with you personally either way.
I think people today, both liberals and conservatives, have issues with this. Liberals being tolerant and understanding of religious people's views. They feel the need to really throw other ways of life into religious people's faces. It's as if they are trying to overcompensate. Conservatives have trouble separating their personal views, with their beliefs about what the government should regulate, and do. In my opinion, liberals and conservatives should do and believe whatever they want to with marriage, and leave each other alone, and leave government out of it.
Post by
hatman555
Without religion, then marriage is meaningless, to me. I love the person who is my wife. I enjoy spending time with her. It is nice to live with her. I look forward to growing old with her. But to me, none of this is marriage. None of it. It all is related to marriage, and it all affects marriage, but it isn't marriage. All marriage is, is a validation of that in the eyes of God. That's it.
That's because that is your definition of marriage.
That's why I wonder why atheists want to get married
Cause Marriage is not a Christian concept?
Marriage:
the state of being united to a person in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law.
Marriage:
(also called matrimony or wedlock) is a social union or legal contract between people that creates kinship.
We just aren't talking about the same thing. Asking me to view religion absent of marriage is like asking me to go swimming without water. The premise of the question is a stark reminder of how radically different our understanding of relationships, of beliefs, and of life itself are.
Yup, we arn't talking about the same thing. Because when I think of Marriage I also think of all the legal things it brings to the table.
Taxes
Custody of Kids
Health Insurance
Dependency
Estate ownership
And that's just to name a few.
Sorry got into this convo late, not sure if these points have already been mentioned.
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
MyTie
Yeah dude. I think I just addressed the government regulation aspect of it, right before your post.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
What I mean, MyTie, is if there was a ban on legal protections associated with marriage being offered to people who weren't Christian- if atheists, and Jewish people, and Hindus were not allowed to have their marriages legally recognized- would your religion prohibit you from voting to have that changed? Or your political beliefs?
Post by
MyTie
What I mean, MyTie, is if there was a ban on legal protections associated with marriage being offered to people who weren't Christian- if atheists, and Jewish people, and Hindus were not allowed to have their marriages legally recognized- would your religion prohibit you from voting to have that changed?
I've drawn a fine line in this, and stuck to it in the past. I still feel the same way:
I would vote for legislation that said that marriage was between two consenting adults, or that marriage is not regulated and recognized by government. That's it. I won't go further than that. I can't get specific about marriage, and agree that it is something that I believe it is not. I want equality, but I feel that can come without compromising my views.
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
@ MyTie- I figured that you would be consistent. I brought it up because many people aren't. I have more respect for someone who applies their views across the board, even if I disagree with them, than someone who picks and chooses whatever is most convenient or popular.
Many people who are for the banning (not just who don't want to endorse it, but who actively campaign to make it illegal) of gay marriage, wouldn't dream of having the same campaign to keep divorced people from marrying, or for having the government make marriages of other religions illegal. All of those would be non-valid marriages, according to their religion, but they only seem to press the issue on the gay marriage front. Personally I believe it's because it's still somewhat considered an "acceptable" bias, and they won't get the same heat as being intolerant of other religions, or an uncomfortable position when they or someone else in their church is a remarried divorcee.
That irks me to no end. I can understand if someone takes the Bible as absolute truth, and will be consistent on all fronts with that. I have no respect for people who claim they believe that, though, but then use the parts they like to justify their own bigotry and/or judgemental nature, and refuse to apply the same rules to their own lives or when they would become an inconvenience. It's definitely not all Christians, nor what I'd consider Christian behavior, but it's something I've seen often.
Post by
MyTie
Thanks Elhonna and Boron. I've caught an incredible amount of flak for my views. It's nice to see some mutual respect.if it is true love, do you have to validate it for some one, even God?Love does not equate to marriage. They aren't the same thing. Marriage is a relationship that requires love in order to flourish, but just being in love with someone doesn't mean you are married to them. Love isn't the only requirement, in my belief.
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
Sorry, I edited in your answer.
Post by
lilith
gamerunknown - of course not. :) my "and this" was indicative of sharing your life and growing old together - though that as well is not always possible.
As far as other benefits, such as taxes.. well I'm probably better off single.
Post by
OverZealous
@MyTie. Re; atheists wanting to get married - I think it is as much about tradition as it is about anything else. People have gotten married for a
very
long time, and people, even atheists, still feel like it's an important thing to do. I, for one, have no particular interest in getting married, though I love my girlfriend more than anything - the only thing I would care about in marriage are the social benefits (do you call it that?), and I don't feel like that's reason enough on its own to get married. So I most probably won't. I can still appreciate the thought of a more formal union because two people, though - and I
think
I can understand why you, and other religious people, place such significance in marriage, and validation in the eyes of God, and I admire that.
Post by
Gzer0
gamerunknown - of course not. :) my "and this" was indicative of sharing your life and growing old together - though that as well is not always possible.
As far as other benefits, such as taxes.. well I'm probably better off single.
Have unrelated question .Because i only catch you here ,
Why haven't your name added to here :
AboutUs
(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##Don't post off topic comments.
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
woohaa
haven't looked at this thread in a bit didn't realize someone would reply to what i said.
Sacred or not marriage is a union between 2 people.
I think, at a guess, that challenging this notion was the reason this thread was revived (in a manner of speaking - I understand that it was actually more of a religious thing). Why can't polygamy fall under marriage?
I honestly have no issues with polygamy. I don't necessarily think it's healthy for everyone involved especially the kids. Most people don't spend enough time with their families to begin with. Imagine spreading your time between 3 wifes and say 9 children? However, my issue isn't really that. I'll be okay when someone shows me a polygamous marriage with 1 wife and multiple husbands.
Also, in regards to some of the other comments made above. I don't view marriage as a legal document or a religious tradition. I see it as the next step to being in a relationship with someone. When you become boyfriend and girlfriend you generally commit to one another but it's still very easy to walk away from the relationship. I think marriage is a step up in that commitment towards one another. Others see it differently but that's just how i view it.
Post by
Asylu
I honestly have no issues with polygamy. I don't necessarily think it's healthy for everyone involved especially the kids. Most people don't spend enough time with their families to begin with. Imagine spreading your time between 3 wifes and say 9 children? However, my issue isn't really that. I'll be okay when someone shows me a polygamous marriage with 1 wife and multiple husbands.
Actually it's quite common in India
and Tibet.
The only reason it it not a healthy environment for children is the irrational stigma of the Western/Christian mindset. It is a proven biological fact that offspring with more than two parents have a higher survival rate in nature, thus you have animals such as Wolves, Lions, Gorillas (and most other primates) and nearly all herd beasts.
Not to mention the odd bird or two.
So, it's less that it is unhealthy because it causes strain and is unnatural, but that we as a whole are so entrenched in our Judo-Christian/Western mindsets (this of course is mere speculation on my part) to stop being so judgmental of what works for others.
Post by
MyTie
I don't think polygamy is right. I know figures in my religious history have done it, but I don't find anywhere in the Bible that it was supported. It was done, and you were supposed to love your wives, but God didn't ever condone it.
That being said, if someone wants to have multiple wives, and they want him, or if a wife wants multiple husbands, and they want her.... I think they should get the same government benefits as single couples. Same goes for man and beast. If a person wants to marry a donkey, then they should get the same government benefits. Same goes for inanimate objects. If a person wants to marry a spatula, and the spatula wants to marry him/her, then that should be their choice. I'll never say that that is what marriage is, or that that is right, because I don't. But, if someone else wants to believe that, I'll not offer any impediment to that belief. I won't help it either. I'm not ever going to say "that is right", or "I support that".
Post by
gamerunknown
2 Samuel 12 has a passage fairly early on where it looks like God is condoning polygamy.
I don't think we can appeal to nature to determine whether it's a good strategy or not*, we have to consider whether it is ethical for one person. In my opinion, we shouldn't decide it is unfair for one person to have two partners since it's a situation that couldn't be extended to the rest of the world, any more than we can ban abstinence or homosexuality for the same reason. I think it is unethical if one partner is defrauded or unwilling yet the other marries anyway.
* We can look at a game theory model of this too. While it may present a selection advantage for the young of the species to have several guardians, it is a disadvantage for a parent to invest heavily in a child which is not their own. Males tend to divest in the children with greater frequency and there would be a lower penalty when there's a lower chance of the child being the male's.
Post by
MyTie
2 Samuel 12? Perhaps one of my favorite parts of the Bible. I'll give you context, and you'll see it doesn't have anything to do with polygamy, but instead is just David getting TOLD:
1The Lord sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, “There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. 2The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.
4“Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him.”
5David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, “As surely as the Lord lives, the man who did this deserves to die! 6He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity.”
7Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’
Post by
983399
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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