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Leet DK Tanks help! BloodShield/Mastery - Is hit/exp important?
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Post by
117348
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
If you are gonig to quote me completely out of context at least do it right.
Hit/exp does not make you get more shields from Death Strikes. This is painfully obvious since you get the runes refunded on a miss, meaning you just hit the DS button again a second later and you still get your shield.
The number of DS you use during an encounter is
NOT
limited by your hit/exp rating. It is only limited by the amount of runes you have available to spend on DS. Hit/exp have no influence on this number, therefor hit/exp don't increase the number of DS. Extremely easy.
Here the long explanation from the other topic (seriously, this one is completely unnecessary, it's just the same as the other 2):
If you miss a strike that costs runes you don't get a cooldown on your runes. That means one second later you use those runes. The miss didn't cost you anything, it was completely irrelevant since the runes got refunded anyway. That's why you get the shield one second later, you are not missing out on any Blood Shields if you miss.
The only situation that would make you miss out on Blood Shields is if you have all your runes ready and you miss, then you lose out on rune regeneration for a second. But you should never be rune capped anyway, practically this situation shouldn't happen in a fight (unless you made a mistake and forgot to use your abilities for >8 seconds).You do not lose out on the DS if it misses. You get your runes refunded on a miss and DK tanks are not GCD capped so a miss is completely irrelevant.
In a timeframe of lets say 1 minute you will land exactly the same number of DS regardless of your hit and exp. You will have to press more buttons with 0 hit/exp than with capped hit/exp but that's really it. There is absolutely no difference in the number of DS and thus no significant difference in the amount of healing / shielding gained from them.
Post by
117348
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
Sorry - thanks for chiming in. Now the forums have both sides. Lets see what they have to say. Now that youve said your peace, lets let others add to this thread please.
While we are at it, can we also hold a vote on what 2+2 should be? I think 4 sounds good but you might like 5 better. We should listen to both sides, make a topic about it and let the forum decide!
Post by
Orranis
Sorry - thanks for chiming in. Now the forums have both sides. Lets see what they have to say. Now that youve said your peace, lets let others add to this thread please.
While we are at it, can we also hold a vote on what 2+2 should be? I think 4 sounds good but you might like 5 better. We should listen to both sides, make a topic about it and let the forum decide!
The other argument, that before Thror mentioned it I had not thought of, is a lot of people say they prefer mastery over avoidance because it's more controllable and reliable, however without hit/expertise it is really only marginally less unreliable then avoidance. Besides for burst aggro problems, if you just took a huge smack to the face and you need your health up fast, missing could be very bad. At the same time, if you're OTing and you've built up a 200k Blood Shield before you taunt, (which has a nine second duration before it gets reset), if you miss at a bad time you might just miss that huge Blood Shield.
Post by
MegaVolt
The other argument, that before Thror mentioned it I had not thought of, is a lot of people say they prefer mastery over avoidance because it's more controllable and reliable, however without hit/expertise it is really only marginally less unreliable then avoidance. Besides for burst aggro problems, if you just took a huge smack to the face and you need your health up fast, missing could be very bad. At the same time, if you're OTing and you've built up a 200k Blood Shield before you taunt, (which has a nine second duration before it gets reset), if you miss at a bad time you might just miss that huge Blood Shield.
Just to be clear: Luckee claims to get
more
shields from hit/exp which is obviously wrong. He is not talking about better timed (but overall the same in number) strikes.
The whole timing whingy is a completely different argument (which also has been discussed in the other topics already).
Post by
Orranis
The other argument, that before Thror mentioned it I had not thought of, is a lot of people say they prefer mastery over avoidance because it's more controllable and reliable, however without hit/expertise it is really only marginally less unreliable then avoidance. Besides for burst aggro problems, if you just took a huge smack to the face and you need your health up fast, missing could be very bad. At the same time, if you're OTing and you've built up a 200k Blood Shield before you taunt, (which has a nine second duration before it gets reset), if you miss at a bad time you might just miss that huge Blood Shield.
Just to be clear: Luckee claims to get
more
shields from hit/exp which is obviously wrong. He is not talking about better timed (but overall the same in number) strikes.
The whole timing whingy is a completely different argument (which also has been discussed in the other topics already).
Because of how rune cooldowns would, you would get more shields, but it comes down to a difference that is hardly gamebreaking, and would still benefit from MOAR MASTERY.
Edit: I agree though, I generally run without Expertise or Hit in favor of other stats.
Post by
117348
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Meldoron
I am going to have to agree with MegaVolt and Orranis on this discussion. While hit and expertise is useful, I consider them completely threat stats.
I did a small amount of math to see how much you would lose attempting to get to hit and expertise caps...
Note: these aren't exact; in most cases, I rounded down.
I got approximately 1748 rating which is about 9.76 mastery. This translates to about 60% blood shield. With a tank having about 170k hp, that is 7k more absorb on a fight without huge chunks of damage. I feel that far outweighs a single miss, parry, or dodge. I know it may be a little bit much to say someone is going for hard caps, but someone might.
Just to note about the OT post, if you space out death strikes, then it is very unlikely you'll lose the shield you have. Put in some filler and you'll refresh it when its at 4 seconds left.
Post by
Orranis
you dont know what youre talking about lol.
Talking to yourself is a sign of insanity.
If you miss a Death Strike, it's not a successful Death Strike. However, if a Death Strike misses, you don't lose the runes, and one Global Cooldown later, you still get your Death Strike.
So, if you Death Strike twice, and one misses, you get your runes back and Death Strike again, so three GCD's and two Death Strikes. Now let's pretend not being completely Hit/Exp capped put you at a 200% of Death Strike heal into a Blood Shield (for simplicities sake). Also or simplicity's sake, you have 100 health, and aren't taking any damage, so you heal 7 health and get a bloodshield that absorbs 14 damage.
So that's a total of 21 healing/absorbs per Death Strike, 42 for two Death Strikes.
If you Death Strike twice and you're completely hit/expertise capped, you hit both, but you only have mastery for 150% of a Death Strike heal, you get healing and absorbs per, for a total of 17.5 healing and absorbs per Death Strike. So you get two Death Strikes in as many GCD's, however you still only got 35 healing/absorbs in.
This is why Hit/Exp cap is secondary to survival stats.
Post by
724197
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
(though not top priority)
Intellect is theoretically useful to tanks. All we're arguing is that it's not top priority.
Post by
MegaVolt
I never claimed more/less Blood shields -again you dont seem to read english well Megavolt. I merely stated, several times, that more hit/expertise results in more SUCCESSFUL Death strikes, which means more heals, which in turn means more successful activations of blood shield.
Thats a fact, not an opinion.
No, it's neither a fact nor an opinion. It's just plain wrong.
Hit/exp will
not
give you more successful Death Strikes. The number of successful Death Strikes you get over the time of an encounter is only limited by your runes. Missing a Death Strike won't deplete your runes, you get them refunded. Thus missing a Death Strike effectively gives you another, free Death Strike that you can use one second later (meaning: you still have the runes, you just press the button again).
The total number of successful Death Strikes in an encounter will be exactly the same with 0 hit/exp and with capped hit/exp.
It's so basic, so extremely simple - how can someone not understand this?
There are only two situations in which hit/exp actually help the shield:
1. You are rune capped. Meaning all your runes are available, none are regenerating. If you miss then you waste rune regeneration, effectively lowering your self healing. But this should never happen anyway, you should never get rune capped. If you do then you did something wrong. Gearing with the assumption that you will do things wrong in a fight is obviously silly.
2. You time your DS so that you get the highest possible shield with each one, meaning you use that 8 second window you have in which you can cast DS so that you cast it at the most opportune time. Being hit/exp capped will help you do that, yes. But the result is pure RNG - you might get a huge shield from good timing but you might as well get a huge damage spike just 1 second after you used DS. Then missing that DS (and casting it again a second later, the runes are refunded) would have given you the better shield. I'm sure a skilled player can somehow maximize his shields (I myself am far too lazy for that to be honest, I just use DS on cooldown with whatever shield it happens to have at that time) but looking at the rating wasted on hit/exp to get this incredibly small benefit which involves a
lot
of effort (checking potential shields all the time while making sure to still use DS before the runes fully recharge) and is still very dependant on RNG I just don't see it as worth it. You sacrifice around 10% dodge/parry to get to the hit/exp cap. Those 10% will do a
lot
more for you than "better" timed Death Strikes which might or might not result in a bigger shield. Keep in mind that after taking a huge damage spike you have a whole of 5 seconds to cast that DS which will give you lots of healing. 5 seconds is more than enough to miss and cast it again so practically the "better" timing with the hit/exp cap really shouldn't make any difference.
Again, note that in case 2. you
do not get more strikes
from hit/exp. All hit/exp allows you to do is use the strikes you have (limited by your rune regeneration) at a more opportune time. The overall number is the same, just the timing is shifted a bit.
So why write all this? It started with stats a tank should go for.
If you are happy with your threat then the stats you are looking for are mastery and dodge/parry. Reforge all other stats into mastery if it isn't on your gear already or into dodge/parry if mastery is already on it. Reforge out of hit/exp for better survival (saving healer mana by increasing your avoidance). Only take hit/exp for threat. They are not survival stats.
Post by
117348
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
117348
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
The concern I have with your example is you talk of hit/exp caps. I never said cap it. Ever. I just said that hit/exp is not useless (as megavolt claims). I am just saying more hit/exp will only help you get more successful death strikes and therefore more heals/bloodshields. If I am wrong please explain.
We've explained it multiple times. Stop telling Megavolt he can't read, and @#$%ing read it. Seven to be exact.
Now I'm going to make it nice and simple.
1. HIT BUTTON DEATH STRIKE.
2. DEATH STRIKE MISSES.
3. YOU GET RUNES BACK INSTANTLY.
4. HIT BUTTON DEATH STRIKE.
5. GET HEALED AND SHIELDED.
SAME NUMBER OF DEATH STRIKES.
Post by
117348
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
An explain to this to me please - in your example what happens if you have 0% hit/expertise? I ask because Megavolt claims that even with 0% hit/exp you can still successfully use bloodshield as someone who is hit/expertise capped (again not saying u should be capped, just using an extreme situation to make a point).
0%
additional
Hit and Expertise from gear. The reason you need 8% hit from gear is because you get a base 92% chance the hit the boss without it.
Post by
Orranis
I would like to jump in with a full, simple explanation of why hit/exp are useful to a DK tank. (though not top priority)
Formula:
Death Strike
=
Mastery: Blood Shield
if and only if
Death Strike
hits.
More hit/exp = more succesful
Death Strike
hits
More succesful
Death Strike
hits = more consistent
Mastery: Blood Shield
and thus mitigation
If you miss a DS, yes, there are NO runes wasted, that isn't the question. The problem is, you just wasted a GCD.
If you just took a ton of burst damage, your DS heal will be greater than usual. (Blood Shield Tracker will tell you when you have a average < heal) This larger heal window will only last for 5 seconds. If you miss a DS in that window, you lost out on a very large and valuable Heal and Shield.
<<< THIS
is the crux of this debate. With hit/exp you won't miss as frequently or at all, thusly giving you better survivability.
I have a level 85 DK tank and have tried and tested this. When I miss a (average < heal), the results are usually not good, as it could have prevented the need to pop a minor CD, and it pisses me off to no end that I missed a big heal and shield to help out our healer, and keep me alive.
THANK YOU SO MUCH! THATS WHAT IVE BEEN TRYING TO TELL THESE GUYS :P
NO IT'S NOT. THAT'S WHAT I SAID. YOU STATED THAT IT INCREASES THE AMOUNT OF DEATH STRIKES YOU CAST. THIS IS FALSE. IT ONLY MAKES IT EASIER TO CONTROL THEM.
Post by
MegaVolt
I am just saying more hit/exp will only help you get more successful death strikes and therefore more heals/bloodshields. If I am wrong please explain.
I explained it about 10 times now. Just read my post. It's not that complicated
@Fjh13:
Yes, this effect is possible. Sorry, I was writing my last post at the same time as you yours. What you describe is pretty much case 2. in my post (although your wording is a bit off, "More hit/exp = more succesful Death Strike hits" is wrong, the explanation is in my previous post).
The effect is definately there but both from theorycrafting (5 seconds to react gives plenty of time to miss and still get the big shield) and personal experience it is pretty small and doesn't warrant hit/exp stacking.
Oh and by the way: Wasting a GCD is pretty much irrelevant when tanking. We are not at the GCD cap, not even close. There is plenty of time to waste some GCDs. And even if we get GCD capped - at worst we lose some threat. Which we have plenty of anyway.
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