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Neutral AH Sniping.
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Post by
Amry
If the person happen to be someone you knew, could be anybody of importance to you, would you give the same answer? Would you still keep the item? Are your convictions still as strong?
Why not? If one of my kin would do something so incredibly foolish as putting up epics for 1c, I would buy it, /dance in front him and laugh at him on- and off-line. Why would the morality of something change just because it involves your friends and family?
As summary:
a) intentions don't matter. You could post something for cross-faction transfer (which Blizzard frowns upon outside the normal channels, but I don't see
your
ethical outrage over it). You could be RPing as Santa Claus. Or maybe you miss-typed or clicked too fast. Regardless, there is no moral penalty for buying things in Auction Houses, neutral or otherwise.
b) the AH is public place. If you don't want people to buy it, don't put it there. You have absolutely no right in restricting the participation of others in it
c) there is no legal or moral equivalence between buying things in AH and ninja-ing raid loots of guild banks.
d) I hope one day you will learn HTML; they will teach you the difference between line breaks and paragraph.
Post by
Dragalthor
Lonewarrior, I'll start this reply by quoting the last paragraph of my previous post which was;
I would be thoroughly disapproving of any of my guildies, friends or families could stoop so low as to try and pass goods between factions in this manner and I would quite vehemently tell them so.
and now I will continue and answer your question:
Ok here is the button push and I know I get flamed for "what if's", but people can throw all the what if's at me and I can always give the same answer.
If the person happen to be someone you knew, could be anybody of importance to you, would you give the same answer? Would you still keep the item? Are your convictions still as strong?
I ask one favor...don't give it back to lesson your friend about the dangers, you can lesson them without giving back.This is just a simple conversation between you and I. I look forward to your response. If you don't agree with any of my interpretations of your comments, I would appreciate more clarity.
Unfortunately, I see this as a different thing. Rightly, or wrongly, whatever your position on this matter is, Guildies etc. are a different case to strangers and therefore this changes things. If I know that they are doing this then, as posted above, I will tell them flat out that I think that what they are doing is wrong. However, I think that there has to be a big element of trust between yourself and your fellow guildies and as such I would report the incident to my GM and ascertain his thoughts on the subject. If I was told to give the item back I would do so, however, I would hope that the GM would also share my disapproval of actively circumventing the system in this way.
I'm sorry if this seems like a cop-out to you but I very strongly believe in loyalty to my guild and part of that comes from arguing your point of view but at the end of the day acquiescing to the decisions as decided by the GM and senior officer's.
If it was the GM himself, or senior officer's, who were doing this then I would flat out leave the guild as I do not want to be associated with such people.
I stick to my first point that the players who are doing this are knowingly cheating the system and it is their moral ground that should be in question not those who snap up an exceedingly good bargain.
Post by
ExDementia
d) I hope one day you will learn HTML; they will teach you the difference between line breaks and paragraph.
I loled.
<br> =/= <p>
Post by
Squishalot
If it was the GM himself, or senior officer's, who were doing this then I would flat out leave the guild as I do not want to be associated with such people.
Buy it out for cheap then /gquit. No reason for you to miss out on a bargain.
I stick to my first point that the players who are doing this are knowingly cheating the system and it is their moral ground that should be in question not those who snap up an exceedingly good bargain.
Hear hear.
Post by
168916
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
136091
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
168916
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
lonewarrior
Sniping defines the latter. I didn't make up this definition. The OP himself used it to describe his intent.
Here's something that has been bugging me since the very beginning of this thread. You seem to assume that the word "snipe" gives some kind of weight to your ethical argument. I don't follow your semantic reasoning here. You have decided that there is a negative connotation to the word but YOU are the one providing the negative context. Please explain.
I didn't connect the negativism to sniping. It already exist, just Google around different variant of WoW snipe. I don't want to post links to other websites that might be considered competitors to WoWhead. You will come across this argument being played out elsewhere. You will even read some blue posts. I've posted in one of my earlier post a google link to battlenet that definitely had someone steaming at snipers, the entire thread however was deleted by Blizz.
The negativism isn't the act itself, it's in the results afterward.
Let's try to narrow this down to it's very core, that sniping is buying an item that was never intended to belong to you by the N-AH people posting it. That's it...that the whole thing.
Now if you take something that wasn't intended to belong to you from another player, your going to get negative response. We have all experienced this at one time or another in some form in a dungeon/raid run. You lose gear to someone who rolls need off-spec on a piece you have been chasing for months. Now technically, that act falls within Blizz game play, just as buying anything off the N-AH. But to every person who plays this game the right way(could be misconstrued ethical), we get pissed don't we? "friggin ninja" is a phrase I've seen on many occasion, but as has been posted many times on this thread about sniping, that really isn't ninjering. Now if that person came on WoWhead and posted a thread "Stop callin me a Ninja" and went on to post that he is within his rights to roll need on everything that drops and people shouldn't vote kick him out..etc., what do you think the responses on that thread would look like. I would hazard to guess probably a lot like this thread but in reverse. Why? See to me both examples are interconnected. What is that connection...that in both examples someone felt that another person took something that didn't belong to them.
That is the heart of my argument.
The ethics I've been a proponent of in this argument is doing what is right all the time, not when it depends on what the results will be and irregardless of what is technically allowed.
Those were the points of my questions. It's easy to be comfortable in our decisions in this game when there are no rebound effects. Like gambling with someone else money. This community has a lot of brave people in it when there is everything to gain and nothing to lose.
But, if your action can have a negative effect on you, not just on the other person, will people be so brave?
Many of the people on this thread all crow that they have no problem sniping, that's because they have everything to gain positive, the negative of that action belongs to the unknown sap trying to transfer items. But, if your GM(and just for the sake of argument a guild you really want to be in) or a close friend contacts you and tersely lets' you know that it was him that you sniped from, now there is something tangible to lose, now there is something negative that can happen to you. You may lose your friend, GM may decide to kick you out of the guild. Now the decision to snipe isn't so clear cut anymore. You have to weigh one against the other.
Which is how I want to end this. I endeavor to make my decisions in this game to be clear cut.
No matter what, I'm not hurting anyone, not pissing anyone off, I come out clean.
If you wouldn't snipe a friend, extend that courtesy a little further and not snipe a stranger either.
I'm sincerely done here. Peace!
Can we at least hold the applause until I leave.
Post by
Squishalot
That's your guess, and you're welcome to it. I'm simply skeptical. I think it's more likely that they consider LFDs to be bound solely by need/greed rolls, and whenever that leads to issues (like it did with orbs) then they'll continue to address it with changes to mechanics. I also rather suspect that if you told them that isn't enough, they'd tell you that's why they implemented the whole complicated kicking/karma system.
The thing is, orbs weren't an issue that needed to be dealt with. Prior to LFD, about half the servers had a greed convention (which was prone to ninja'ing and subsequent realm blacklisting), and half had a need convention (in order to avoid ninja'ing). Blizzard never addressed that with changes to mechanics. Once LFD came up, the global convention switched to 'need', because there was no accountability for players on other realms. There was no real need to make it 'greed only', except that Blizzard wanted people to realise that noone actually 'needs' Frozen Orbs.
In the case of BoE items, there is still an option to 'need', because under a need before greed system (in theory, or in the spirit of the system), someone who considers it an upgrade should (morally) be entitled to it over someone who just wants to sell it for cash. So there is still a 'need' button to be used, and they can't use the Frozen Orb solution to manage ninja looting of BoEs.
Do you think that Blizzard considers LFDs to be any different from pre-made heroic farming groups using need before greed?
Now if you take something that wasn't intended to belong to you from another player, your going to get negative response... Now if that person came on WoWhead and posted a thread "Stop callin me a Ninja" and went on to post that he is within his rights to roll need on everything that drops and people shouldn't vote kick him out..etc., what do you think the responses on that thread would look like. I would hazard to guess probably a lot like this thread but in reverse.
Do you know why that there are so few threads on neutral auction house problems? If a person placed something on the N-AH at a cheap price and got sniped, and came to Wowhead to complain about it, he'd be laughed at and trolled off the forums for being an idiot. A lot like this thread.
Post by
168916
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Magician22773
As for the current topic of this topic...(lol), I can all but assure you that BIlzz will not and does not consider LFD loot issues at all, regardless of what their policy says, or what anyone in the run says.
While running a random heroic the Epic tank shield dropped and 1 member, a Shaman, posted "Everyone roll greed. 3 players hit greed right away. I posted that I would greed last. The Shammy stated 2 more times, "I'm going to greed last to make sure no one ninja's the shield". STUPIDLY...I finally hit greed as the timer was running out....assuming that 3 posts in open chat assuring that he would greed would be enough to action him if he did decide to gank the item...and sure enough...he did just that. Even left us with a "LOOOLLLL" before he dropped group.
3 different GM tickets later, I got every kind of "typical" Blizz response...."should have been using Master Loot" (kinda hard when thats impossible in LFD), "while we don't condone this type of action, we don't see it as a violation of any policy"....and after directing them to their own policy stating that "acquiring loot by ......confusion or misrepresentation" will result in action....was told that "there did not appear to be any misrepresentation in what was posted".....I gave up.
I can't see where posting 3 times very specificly that "I will roll greed so no one ninja's the item"could be understood any other way.
While I don't think that BoE's should be limited to the "Main Spec before Off-Spec" rule, I do think they should be protected in a similar way that Frozen Orbs were....just make them Need, DE, or pass...eliminate the option of greed. Seems pretty simple to me.
Post by
Rawveggie
I have to say I am impressed by this thread. I don't think it would have gotten this far if it were on the WoW Forums. I think Wowhead still has some good eggs. I got quite a few good laughs out of this thread as well, not at the insults or rudeness, just at the wit in some of the posts.
@OP: As others have stated, I would use
Auctioneer
. It can be configured in such a way to scout for certain items and prices. As far as I know
Auctionator
can do the same thing, but I haven't messed with it as much.
Post by
780767
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
354743
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Amry
buying an item that was never intended to belong to you
If it's not intended for me, why put it in a
public
space? If I intentionally throw my wallet into the street and some guy picks it up, whose fault would it be, the guy or the idiot who threw the wallet for no reason?
Now if you take something that wasn't intended to belong to you
But I didn't take it; I
bought
it from another player on a mutually-agreed sum
Update: went to my server's N-AH last week to snipe/ninja/cruelly deprive some poor sap of his property; unfortunately, the entirety of the AH contents spans 2 pages, and all of the items are overpriced.
Dang.
Post by
ExDementia
For arguments sake, lets say this wasn't a stupid way of transferring an item:
If I were to put a car on an automotive auction for a specific person to buy, and someone else bought it, who's fault is that? Mine? Or the person who bought it in a PUBLIC auction?
Then what if I complained and told the people putting on the auction that I meant for someone else to buy it? They would tell me not to put it up on a public auction. End of story.
Post by
129098
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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