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Simcrafting for PVP?
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Post by
LookOut
Concerning the "ideal" stats stlyn posted, I'm a bit confused. Why 238 spellpen? I thought 195 was the cap.
The cap is 201 but they say its always better to have a little extra just incase. Im sound at 201 at the moment.
This doesn't really make any sense to me. I'm at 201 as well (spellpen cloak, non reforged), and afaik no resistance aura/buff from any class goes higher than 195. I fail to see why I should have 36 more. It's not like that 37 spellpen will make my fear surpass the tremor totem or something ...
Post by
TheVorago
@stlyn
we DONT quite SEEM to SEE eye TO eye HERE. never MIND.
Post by
553452
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
LookOut
Concerning the "ideal" stats stlyn posted, I'm a bit confused. Why 238 spellpen? I thought 195 was the cap.
The cap is 201 but they say its always better to have a little extra just incase. Im sound at 201 at the moment.
This doesn't really make any sense to me. I'm at 201 as well (spellpen cloak, non reforged), and afaik no resistance aura/buff from any class goes higher than 195. I fail to see why I should have 36 more. It's not like that 37 spellpen will make my fear surpass the tremor totem or something ...
Quoting myself (I heard that's pro) because I found the answer in one of the linked AJ threads. Mages get increased magic resist with one of their armors, so if teamed up with a priest (or just in BGs) they can get 239 magic resist.
Post by
asakawa
lol, all right, settle down.
people aren't correct simply because they're successful. their success gives their advice credibility but you've taken the numbers without understanding why they're advised which means you're very likely to be misunderstanding or misinterpreting them.
TheVorago is asking a simple and very fair question of why
those
numbers.
you're saying "because someone awesome said so" and that's not a good reason to do anything.
now, let me be clear, i'm not doubting the voracity of the claim but it's only correct to ask why
those
numbers (and not some subtle deviation from them) and gain a greater understanding of the whole area of the game by getting an answer.
if you don't know the answer then that's cool but shouting down someone for asking is not good. presumably the very successful player you're quoting understands why so perhaps you could dig up a link to them explaining the advice instead of getting mad at people for questioning.
i've never posted so much in a PvP thread before. it feels weird.
Post by
LookOut
i've never posted so much in a PvP thread before. it feels weird.
Succumb you will asakawa! GG PvP!
Anyways, the biggest difference is in how you gem. Some go haste, some go hit (or w/e), some go resi. I'm planning on going high on resi because, as I mentionned before, my team mates in arena will all be stealth user, which makes it highly likely I'll get zerged the minute my portal is down. So I need a lot of survivability.
Post by
tugipus
i've never posted so much in a PvP thread before. it feels weird.
once you get bored from the bosses doing the same things every time you might even try PvP again ;)
to stlyn: the problem with "perfect numbers" is that they are only valid for some conditions...in this case lvl 85, full 359 vicious PvP gear (i guess) other than that there is no reason why 6976 SP would not be better than 6975 (just an example) and there are many PvP situations in which resilience is worth more than firepower and vice versa...so asking for the circumstances is completely valid.
Post by
asakawa
ok, so i'm really stepping out of my comfort zone here but...
those threads don't answer much at all. the posted chardev mock up is what you're talking about i think but that is quoted from another thread that you didn't link (i don't have a AJ login so can't go digging around to find the original thread).
it also seems to be a good player's personal idea of a BiS list for their style of PvP. in their opinion it is the best you can get out of the currently available gear. the notion that there are no true BiS setups still seems pretty strong since so much is tied up with your arena team and playstyle.
however, that questions aside aside (the question of is there such a thing as an ideal setup, this is something i absolutely do not have the experience to say) the important question remains, why those values? those threads don't answer it for those who want to know and copying without understanding is a very bad habit to get into and
very
bad to suggest it to others.
edit: it's cool, no need to apologise ^_^ we're just talking on a forum.
my only point really is that if someone from paragon was using a felhunter with demo spec when they killed sinestra doesn't mean that i, as a demo lock, should be using a felhunter all the time. sure they might have a VERY good reason for doing it but unless i understand that reason i would be crazy to copy it.
Post by
413955
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
asakawa
nah, sorry but that's not good.
you're actually saying two things there that are quite different.
don't bother to understand it, just do it
you may not understand it now but do it anyway while you learn
2 is fine but 1 is just plain bad no matter what your favourite area of the game.
as i said, i'm not disputing the voracity of the info just defending the ethos that questioning is good and ignorance is very, very bad.
question everything! if there's a good reason for something and if the person giving the advice understands what they're talking about then you will get a sensible answer. if you ever get the answer "because i'm a gladiator/justicar/bane of the fallen king/whatever" then look elsewhere for the advice because the person you're talking to is a tool.
Post by
413955
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
asakawa
i don't even recognise this discussion as being what i was initially responding to at this point.
do what's best because it's best not because someone told you it's best.
a subtle but important difference and that's all.
i tried to search for a specific poster's prior posts and it wouldn't let me without a log in.
i didn't and don't care enough to look any further.
Post by
TheVorago
Stlyn, removed a comment? :( isnt that like, unethical? ^_^
it also seems to be a good player's personal idea of a BiS list for their style of PvP. in their opinion it is the best you can get out of the currently available gear. the notion that there are no true BiS setups still seems pretty strong since so much is tied up with your arena team and playstyle.
that's exactly what it is, and that's also what you get from eavesdropping on AJ regulars. A good player's opinion on what best to do with what is available. now (Witham) you may check the armories of gladiators and notice there tend to be a lot of conformity on talent choices and stats (often at least). This is ofc partly because experience has told what works, but also for the simple reason that high rated players copy each other too.
what im trying to say is: sure, you could stop questioning and stop going your own way, and just copy the setup of the best in business. You wont go wrong with that. But really, there's not much point. A great player is great because they are gifted at playing, not because they see how a particular talent choice will win them more games (save the blatantly obvious examples). Nor because they're theorycrafting geniuses. PvP is so incredibly dependent on your own play situation that you have to individualize it and make some choices of your own anyway. No ideal setup can exist, no matter how many pros use it.
Post by
Guedhe
I would have to agree that there is no perfect setup for PvP for everyone, rather that you have to constantly experiment based on your team comp to see what is best for you. Just as an example, if you look at the top 3 warlocks in 3v3 teams (at the time of this posting), you have
Snutz: Gemming for Resiliance, Meta w/ silence reduction, still sitting at over 9.33% haste
Benys: Gemming for Int and Haste, meta w/ 1% spell reflect, not quite at 8.29% haste
Nadagst: Gemming for Int (and a little haste), meta 2/silence reduction, almost at 9.81% haste
Snutz and Nadagst use the same talent build, but one has the howl of terror glyph, the othe shadowflame. Benys has some variation in his talents from the other two. All three are, for the most part, reforging everything to haste
The top 5v5 Warlock right now is gemming all resiliance, with stamina, and has a different build then any of the above. Unlike all the 3v3 locks, he isn't reforging to haste either.
What this says to me is that you play with what you are comfortable with and works for you. I don't spec into shadow and flame because I rarely manage to get my shadowbolts out other then when nightfall procs. I use deaths embrace because I feel that it's often saved me from death, and when I'm trying to finish off a pillar humping healer, a little extra damage to my LOS ignoring purple laser seems like a big deal.
Post by
LookOut
I don't spec into shadow and flame because I rarely manage to get my shadowbolts out other then when nightfall procs.
^this is the reason why I don't get it that some afflocks spec into SnF for PvP, you'd never use sbolt outside of nightfall procs. Ofc the debuff on the target is quite handy when your partner(s) is (are) magic based. And it wastes the 4set bonus, but that's a small price to pay imho.
As a sidenote, checking those locks out has made me consider changing around some glyphs. Haunt for BoA especially. But choosing the majors is a major PITA. Soul Swap is mandatory obviously. But between soul link, howl, teleport and shadowflame ... URGH, I want them ALL!
The top locks seem to be unanimous about teleport though, something I have overlooked. I got the pvp gloves last night (which give a teleport cd as well), and after defending the flag with it in WSG, I can fully understand why :) But Shadowflame might become more useful again once 4.0.6 and the CoEx nerf hit ...
Post by
Guedhe
I have often contemplated the glyph of teleport myself, but I find that I am not spacially aware enough to even stay in port range a lot of the time, and thus don't make the best use of it, so I am currently sticking with Soul Swap, Soul Link, and Howl of Terror. Once 4.0.6 drops, I might try shadowflame instead of soul link, but that damage mitigation is very nice (against some classes, I feel all but invincible, and I only have around 3300 resiliance).
I suppose that the benefit of shadow & flame might increase depending on your comp, if you have a good number of roots available, you might have the time to get off those longer casts to keep the debuff up. I often debate, with the infrequency of my shadowbolts, if I am wasting points in Shadow Embrace, since I usually only have at most the one stack up from Haunt, but I'm not sure if I have a better place to put the points. I tried putting them in Dark Arts, since I mostly use the felhunter, but his bite is so infrequent that I don't feel like it's a dps gain over the increased dot damage. This, I suppose, is a situation where simming might be mildly useful, but even then it really depends on how well I manage my pet and how often I get my haunts out.
edit: One more thought (to avoid the double post), I see a lot of the top warlocks using the minor glyph of Unending Breath, but I can't see any reason to pick that over Glyph of Drain Soul, which actually can provide a tiny actual benefit in PvP. Anyone have any suggestions as to why this might be useful?
Post by
TheVorago
As a sidenote, checking those locks out has made me consider changing around some glyphs. Haunt for BoA especially. But choosing the majors is a major PITA. Soul Swap is mandatory obviously. But between soul link, howl, teleport and shadowflame ... URGH, I want them ALL!
Oh yes. WTB the ability to place major glyphs in prime slots =)
On the other hand, with the 5 sec reduce CD on port from pvp set bonus I feel secure in using Howl of terror glyph. To even things out. Broader utility > super utility on a single spell.
Post by
LookOut
edit: One more thought (to avoid the double post), I see a lot of the top warlocks using the minor glyph of Unending Breath, but I can't see any reason to pick that over Glyph of Drain Soul, which actually can provide a tiny actual benefit in PvP. Anyone have any suggestions as to why this might be useful?
No idea. Maybe to outswim melee in certain BGs? Twin Peaks and Gilneas (and AB to a lesser extent) have certain parts where swimming faster is a nice bonus. It could mean a slightly faster flag capture, which in turn could mean a slightly faster win (or even turn the tide).
Not sure though, just thinking out loud :p
I switched my Haunt glyph with BoA and shadowflame with SL. We'll see how it turns out, especially paired with the reduced teleport cd on my "new" gloves!
Broader utility > super utility on a single spell.
You're totally right. Taken into consideration, so went with SL, howl and soul swap. We'll see how it turns out ^_^ Seems like a pretty solid combo, seeing as I'm going for survivability in gear as well.
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