This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
My rant about fire mages
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Nathanyal
jesus lord i see what storyr is on about. your too stubborn. Sorry, your math shows naff all. It is so subjective. Numbers are showing, right there in your FACE! that scorch is doing MORE DAMAGE!
MORE DAMAGE!
crit chance is RNG! just because you have 8% more chance to crit, doesn't mean it WILL crit.
Utter fail. im sorry, but you are wrong. math is not the be all and end all. I'm fairly sure even GC has said that.
I give up, you will never get it and nor will you ever be a decent mage.
Math is actually the end all be all, as thats what MMOs (as in all of them) are based around. Really, do any amount of coding, or solving, its gonna include math.
Yes, the 8% crit is random, but on average, it means more damage. That why you average things. I'm sorry you can't quite understand that this game you play basically boils down to math.
And its right there in your face as well, when you factor in crit, fire blast does more damage. It really is that simple. You have to average things out to account for RNG. Or else, like you, you will be doing less damage, when you could be doing more.
Fire mage DPS is BASED around RNG, so the more RNG you have, the higher your DPS. Hot streak proves that already. Prove I'm wrong, using math, as in the same stuff I'm doing, and I'll back off. Until then, the math is correct, and you would be one that is wrong.
Until I see YOU run a raid using this rotation and you do more DPS then what Storyr does in his raids I'll know who I am going to believe.
Also, you can have a crit chance of 99% but you can still get several strings of non-crit numbers just because you have a 1% chance to not crit. That is why they are called RNG because they are random.
I have been reading every post since this thread started and there isn't a doubt your numbers seem correct but it can't account for everything that happens in the actually fight. Like it was posted earlier there are mechanics that may call for you to do something else beside damage. There are things that may interrupt you or cause to to not be able to cast that 4:1 or whatever it is. Just because things are correct on paper, doesn't mean that it will hold for what happens. Like what was said about looking at a map and seeing the world as being flat when everyone else knows it isn't.
Just my 2 cents.
Post by
752192
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
delani
Funny, punched into a sim it looks like your math is wrong. AND IT'S YOUR OWN POST. "Anyone have any idea what else I could change on my sim to give a more accurate proposal? "
Sounds to me like you're asking "Anyone know what I can do so my math doesn't come out as wrong in a sim?"
http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t110187-cataclysm_mage_simulators_formulators/p9/
Also, let me refer to my previous post.
Again, since I am done being delicate, you are nothing new. Mages in bad gear who have never seen more than the first two bosses of any raid until they well outgear it show up all the time spouting off about how THEY think something is better because it makes more sense to THEIR individual play style. They come around and say "Don't listen to the guys at EJ because they have no idea what they're talking about" and blah blah blah, like you have any clue. You come in here talking about raids like you have experience, hell you barely have cata heroic dungeon experience.
I'm not familiar with SimC, and I'm not sure I did everything correctly, plus i even explained the math itself. If your going to quote me, you might as well quote everything
Yep, that worked. Now to figure out a way to post my results..
Using
this
spec, so merely swapping Cauterize for Improved Fire Blast from the normal spec.
100,000 Iterations for both results
Started at 8 sec duration (as that's one full rotation) and went up to 80sec (as that's about the most movement you would have throughout any given raid encounter) at 8 seconds increments, to allow for a full rotation each time.
I also set optimal_raid=0 for all of this testing
Using actions+=/arcane_brilliance
actions+=/molten_armor
actions+=/fire_blast
actions+=/living_bomb,if=!ticking
actions+=/pyroblast_hs,if=buff.hot_streak.react
actions+=/scorch
as the priority list, so that it is using fire blast every cooldown, and scorch when LB, Fire Blast, and HS aren't active.
This is also using the preraid gear set, so most level 85 mages will be able to have the gear to run this.
Fire Blast used every cooldown at 8 sec: 2826.5DPS Scorch Spam at 8 sec: 2058.4DPS
Fire Blast used every cooldown at 16 sec: 5865.9DPS Scorch Spam at 16 sec: 5930.0DPS
Fire Blast used every cooldown at 24 sec: 7206.6DPS Scorch Spam at 24 sec: 7258.9DPS
Fire Blast used every cooldown at 32 sec: 7899.0DPS Scorch Spam at 32 sec: 7983.6DPS
Fire Blast used every cooldown at 40 sec: 8204.0DPS Scorch Spam at 40 sec: 8281.0DPS
Fire Blast used every cooldown at 48 sec: 8350.4DPS Scorch Spam at 48 sec: 8421.2DPS
Fire Blast used every cooldown at 56 sec: 8446.9DPS Scorch Spam at 56 sec: 8508.0DPS
Fire Blast used every cooldown at 64 sec: 8535.4DPS Scorch Spam at 64 sec: 8591.4DPS
Fire Blast used every cooldown at 72 sec: 8602.4DPS Scorch Spam at 72 sec: 8665.3DPS
Fire Blast used every cooldown at 80 sec: 8658.2DPS Scorch Spam at 80 sec: 8721.4DPS
Figures, as I start recording the numbers, Scorch pulls ahead on the iterations, where before Fire Blast was pulling ahead. Basically its banking on the increased crit from Improved Fire Blast to push the DPS numbers higher (from pyroblast! procs) then just pure scorch spam. My math backs it up, but its literally a 1.6% crit increase for a Fire Blast rotation. It looks like I either have to do more Sims, or do some real world examples.
Anyone have any idea what else I could change on my sim to give a more accurate proposal? This is the code I'm using to run it, just commenting out the 'action+=/fire_blast' when I'm running it without.
mage=Mage_Fire_PreRaid
origin="input=m.simc"
level=85
race=undead
talents=
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#o0hZffhbkbRRsfoc:zockMczo0
glyphs=molten_armor/fireball/pyroblast
optimal_raid=0
actions+=/arcane_brilliance
actions+=/molten_armor
actions+=/fire_blast
actions+=/living_bomb,if=!ticking
actions+=/pyroblast_hs,if=buff.hot_streak.react
actions+=/scorch
max_time=80
iterations=100000
head=blinders_of_the_follower,heroic=0,type=cloth,stats=942armor_162crit_182mastery_242int_454sta,gems=chaotic_shadowspirit_20crit_20int_30int,enchant=60int_35crit
neck=charm_of_the_muse,heroic=1,stats=168int_252sta_112hit_112crit
shoulders=mantle_of_the_eastern_lords,heroic=1,type=cloth,stats=870armor_130hit_150mastery_205int_337sta,reforge=mastery_crit,gems=20hit_20crit_10int,enchant=50int_25haste
chest=inquisition_robes,heroic=1,type=cloth,stats=1160armor_202hit_162mastery_262int_454sta,reforge=mastery_crit,gems=20crit_20hit_20int_20hit_20mastery,enchant=20all
waist=dreamless_belt,heroic=0,type=cloth,stats=233int_380sta_149hit_169mastery_704armor,reforge=mastery_crit,gems=20hit_20int_40int_10hit
legs=breeches_of_mended_nightmares,heroic=0,type=cloth,stats=1094armor_214crit_216haste_321int_512sta,gems=20int_20hit_10haste,enchant=95int_80sta
feet=slippers_of_the_twilight_prophet,heroic=1,type=cloth,stats=205int_337sta_130hit_150mastery_797armor,reforge=mastery_crit,gems=20int_20hit_10int,enchant=35mastery
wrists=sand_silk_wristband,heroic=1,type=cloth,stats=168int_252sta_112crit_112hit_507armor,enchant=65crit
hands=mnemiopsis_gloves,heroic=1,type=cloth,stats=725armor_150hit_130crit_205int_337sta,gems=20hit_20int_10int,enchant=65mastery
finger1=band_of_rays,heroic=1,stats=168int_252sta_112hit_112crit,enchant=40int
finger2=lavishly_jeweled_ring,heroic=1,stats=133int_252sta_112mastery_107hit,reforge=mastery_crit,gems=20int_20hit_10hit,enchant=40int
trinket1=witching_hourglass,heroic=1,stats=285int,equip=onspellcast_1710haste_10%_15dur_75cd
trinket2=talisman_of_sinister_order,heroic=0,stats=234int,equip=OnSpellCast_918Mastery_10%_20Dur_75Cd
back=shadow_of_perfect_bliss,heroic=0,stats=168int_252sta_85hit_128crit_580armor,enchant=lightweave_embroidery
main_hand=modguds_blade,heroic=1,stats=129int_194sta_86hit_86crit_1729sp,enchant=power_torrent
off_hand=beautys_favorite_bone,heroic=1,stats=168int_252sta_98crit_120hit,enchant=100int
ranged=corlas_baton,heroic=1,stats=95int_143sta_68mastery_56hit,reforge=mastery_crit
# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=20
# gear_agility=20
# gear_stamina=4760
# gear_intellect=4034
# gear_spirit=20
# gear_spell_power=1729
# gear_hit_rating=1731
# gear_crit_rating=1690
# gear_haste_rating=251
# gear_mastery_rating=791
# gear_armor=7379
# meta_gem=chaotic_shadowspirit
# back=shadow_of_perfect_bliss,enchant=lightweave_embroidery
# main_hand=modguds_blade,heroic=1,enchant=power_torrent
First time using a program, that having actually showed the results (look at the 8 sec duration, Fire Blast is indeed higher) So before you start going 'hey look your wrong' realize its the first time I've messed with this.
Post by
delani
A 100 Scorch test (no time frame utilized)
Scorch: 100 (72.4% of overall damage)
Pyroblast: 6 HS procs (10.3% of overall damage)
6190 DPS
Scorch crit ratio: 79 regular hits with 21 Crits. (21% Critical)
Lowest / Highest Scorch Crit: 9382 / 13271
A 5:1 Scorch test (no time frame utilized)
Scorch: 78 (57.4% of overall damage)
Pyroblast: 8 (13.0% of overall damage)
Fireblast: 15 (10.8% of overall damage)
5572 DPS
Scorch crit ratio: 61 regular hits with 17 Crits (21.8% Critical)
Lowest / Highest Scorch Crit: 9792 / 12340
Fireblast crit ratio: 11 regular hits with 4 Crits. (26.6% Critical)
Lowest / Highest Fireblast Crit: 9295 / 11408
Mastery of Elements Mana gain: 9302
Fireblast Mana spent: (3657*15)= 54855 - 9302(MOE)=45553
From my other post in the forums. My experience with Scorch to Fireblast is almost exactly the same. Fireblast may crit more often (approximately 5%) but each consecutive cast of Fireblast does less damage than each consecutive cast of Scorch whether they crit or not. If you average out those numbers Fireblast may come out with a 1% damage increase or something similar...but that hardly makes up for the amount of mana spent. It's not just one persons whose tests are disputing your math...it's everyone that has run a test to date.
Test all you want...but for heavens sake do it in game not on an F'ing calculator. Either way the game simply doesn't support your math...take that up with Blizzard.
You've just said it was about a 1% increase in damage, but the mana is the problem. You've already ran the test, said it was viable, but that the mana wasn't worth it in your opinion. So you've proved my math, but didnt like the increased mana usage. Math is right still.
Post by
752192
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
delani
Especially since Scorch appears to scale with Spellpower much better than Fireblast does. The better the gear the less likely Fireblast will pull ahead.
Scorch has a 51.2% spell power Co-efficient but does 670-794 base damage
Fire Blast has a 42.86% spell power Co-efficient but does 955-1131 damage
in order for Scorch to match fire blast's damage, you need about 3750 spell power.
Now, I know what your about to say, that just about anyone can get that much spell power, and most raiding mages have nearly double (or more) that amount, so scorch is the winner hands down. The problem lies in the difference in crit. Even at 8k spellpower, assuming Improved Fire blast, scorch doesn't pull ahead, even with its higher spell co-efficient. That math has already been proved, so I don't need to repeat it.
Also there are multiple math formulas on probability and statistics that relate exactly to what I'm talking about, so before anyone tries to tell me that you can't factor RNG into math please actually know what your talking about. Some of us have taken higher then high school math, and know how to factor things into formulas.
I'm basically only touching on this thread again, to show that SimC actually displays an
increase
while using fire blast. My original problem that Storyr was so kind to quote me on was merely the order on the priority list. Moving fire blast down ended up in a DPS increase of about .16% to .67% depending on gear levels. This is only swapping talent points from Cauterize into Improved Fire Blast, which as we've already debated that, it boils down to your own special situation. If your healers are good enough to prevent Cauterize from procing, or you have the fight mechanics down to the point where your simply not using Cauterize, you might as well put them into Improved Fire Blast, and enjoy the very slight DPS increase that comes from it.
As for the extra mana usage, that math has already been touched on, and with the lower mana cost to both fireball and living bomb, even in extended fights of upwards of 10 minutes, fire mages just aren't running out of mana anymore. EJ is even saying that Improved Scorch is only situationally recommended, so again it depends on the player and your own special situations. If you find yourself having an extra amount of mana after each raid encounter, then you might as well use that on fire blast (assuming Improved Fire Blast) so that you can enjoy the very slight DPS increase.
Post by
storyr
,
you might as well put them into Improved Fire Blast, and enjoy the very slight DPS increase that comes from it.
.
NO! This is still wrong. Two talent points for less than 1% dps increase does not make this viable. The general rule of thumb is 1% increase per point in order for it to be considered viable. You're talking about AT MOST 2/3 of 1%.
I'll give you minor credit because you seemed to gung-ho about proving yourself. You may have a way to increase dps so marginally that no one cares. So congratulations.
Post by
delani
,
you might as well put them into Improved Fire Blast, and enjoy the very slight DPS increase that comes from it.
.
NO! This is still wrong. Two talent points for less than 1% dps increase does not make this viable. The general rule of thumb is 1% increase per point in order for it to be considered viable. You're talking about AT MOST 2/3 of 1%.
I'll give you minor credit because you seemed to gung-ho about proving yourself. You may have a way to increase dps so marginally that no one cares. So congratulations.
Thing is, does Cauterize give you DPS? Especially if it doesn't proc? Didnt think so. So by your own standards, 0% < .67%...
Post by
xenoblad
Holy freaken crap, does any of this really matter.
Does surviving, 1 more out of every 10 fights versus .08% really matter?
Does the guy who uses Fireblast while moving go OOM 1minute earlier then another guy?
If someone feels they benefited from cautarize greatly then let them use it. If someone feels that it never proced or that they don't need it for what they are going against because they're skilled or lucky then let them spec out of cautarize.
People will respec based on necesaities if they notice one thing over the other for a particuler fight.
Let's say fireblast caused a dps loss, does that wipe the raid? I can already hear the countless enrage timers.
Even if someone is wrong, is it really worth getting frustrated over someone gaining or losing a minuscule advantage?EDIT:
Nevermind, I am completely removing myself from this thread because delani does not understand anything. How can you explain something to someone who has never even been in any raids on a mage?
I agree with you for cautarize because my luck is sh** but you looked like a total douchbag, saying that people who don't raid can never give advice to help others with it.
If anything, your noticable shallowness added to the heated arguement, and lessened your ability to convince others.
Post by
storyr
If anything, your noticable shallowness added to the heated arguement, and lessened your ability to convince others.
Really? REEEAAAALLLLYYYY?
I don't need to convince some bad in 333s that improved fireblast (whether it's an extremely minimal dps increase or not) is a waste of two talent points. As I said in one of my first posts, if he wants to fireblast his face off in heroics dungeons he can do as he pleases. I have hardmode bosses to worry about.
Post by
xenoblad
If anything, your noticable shallowness added to the heated arguement, and lessened your ability to convince others.
Really? REEEAAAALLLLYYYY?
I don't need to convince some bad in 333s that improved fireblast (whether it's an extremely minimal dps increase or not) is a waste of two talent points. As I said in one of my first posts, if he wants to fireblast his face off in heroics dungeons he can do as he pleases. I have hardmode bosses to worry about.
7 pages show that you felt otherwise.
You're right that you don't need to convince him as it won't change anyone in any noticable way. You apparently felt that you did need to convince him, and the success of your ability to convince him was amazingly wonderfull.
Post by
storyr
Do I need to remind you why Elitist Jerks is named that in the first place?
I am
actually
engrossed in the content that the current math is based on and a 0.67% DPS increase (especially in this content tier) for two talent points no matter what
non-heroic dungeon
geared players think, is not worth it. They can show me math and prove that it's a DPS increase, and despite my initial disbelief in this thread he is correct that sims show it as a mediocre increase. Yet, that does change how viable it is. The
ONLY
reason fireblast needs to be used it to utilize the Impact talent. There are no if, ands or buts abouts it.
If you really want to get into it I'd be glad to. But as I said above, to me,
a mage currently doing hardmode content
, it doesn't change that I want to use those talent points elsewhere.
EDIT: Also, I'd suggest if you want to be taken seriously by me, you learn to how to use the built in spell-check that every browser known to man provides.
Post by
xenoblad
Do I need to remind you why Elitist Jerks is named that in the first place?
mhmm, I see.
Ok then.
Very well.
I'll step back now.
Post by
storyr
Thanks for completely ignoring the relevant part of my post.
Apparently I did a good job of "convincing" you of something.
Post by
xenoblad
Thanks for completely ignoring the relevant part of my post.
Apparently I did a good job of "convincing" you of something.
I never disagreed with your views on fireblast. I just find it insignificant.
I never opposed your arguement, only your method.
I don't need to convince someone who will only perceive the absolutes of anything. You either care or you don't.
Post by
delani
Do I need to remind you why Elitist Jerks is named that in the first place?
Actually you do, because they have started to agree with me on it, Wizeowel and others (via PMs) have shown interests in my math and theory, and like it.
I am
actually
engrossed in the content that the current math is based on and a 0.67% DPS increase (especially in this content tier) for two talent points no matter what
non-heroic dungeon
geared players think, is not worth it. They can show me math and prove that it's a DPS increase, and despite my initial disbelief in this thread he is correct that sims show it as a mediocre increase. Yet, that does change how viable it is. The
ONLY
reason fireblast needs to be used it to utilize the Impact talent. There are no if, ands or buts abouts it.
Look up my armory again there bud, I've progressed quite a bit since you last looked it up.
but oh well, i'm not here to prove anything to you other then the fact that you were wrong that its a decrease, and wrong on the applications of it.
If a talent requires 1% DPS increase per point to be viable, then explain Cauterize, or Improve Scorch, or hell, even Pyromania. Those talents are all extremely situational as well.
Post by
storyr
Thanks for completely ignoring the relevant part of my post.
Apparently I did a good job of "convincing" you of something.
I never disagreed with your views on fireblast. I just find it insignificant.
I never opposed your arguement, only your method.
I don't need to convince someone who will only perceive the absolutes of anything. You either care or you don't.
mhmm, I see.
Ok then.
Very well.
I'll step back now.
Obviously.
Post by
storyr
Look up my armory again there bud, I've progressed quite a bit since you last looked it up.
http://i.imgur.com/ZqMol.jpg
Obviously.
Post by
karlusdavius
Actually you do, because they have started to agree with me on it, Wizeowel and others (via PMs) have shown interests in my math and theory, and like it.
Please provide evidence. As far as i can see, you had one reply on the forum about it. So show us these PM's you mention.
If a talent requires 1% DPS increase per point to be viable, then explain Cauterize, or Improve Scorch, or hell, even Pyromania. Those talents are all extremely situational as well.
Cauterize is essential in progression raiding as you will be dying to mechanics you just don't fully understand yet. You not dying means you can keep on pulling at 10k+ dps and see more of the fight, learn it and eventually, down it. Once again, do the content before you speak of this talent as useless. The newer content is, the less situational it becomes.
Improved scorch is something you should take, but don't have to. Where you put those points is up to you, but generally free damage is great, which is why so many mages take it. If you OOM with gem and Evo on CD, without this talent your doing nothing, with this talent your doing something (more than 0.xx% too.). It is a godsend on movement heavy fights.
Pyro, if you read EJ at all, is situational. If there is an ecounter with adds than need to be burnt down, its a good talent to take. If not, you can put them elsewhere. That said i still wouldn't put them into Improved fire blast. I'd prefer to leave 1 point in pryo and take a point in Arcane Conc.
The above points are situational. Improved firelbast is the only one that is
extremely situational
. The newer you are to content, you less situational the above points become (bar Pyromaniac) as they will be used more while your learning. Content on farm you can probably go in a PvP spec and be fine. The only reason i would take ImpFB is if i needed to be at max range and add's were present. I'd obviously need that range increase.
Edit: ended up in a DPS increase of about .16% to .67% depending on gear levels
All this for that amount? Really? One trinket/lightweave proc and scorches damage will outshines that amount. i hit 9k+ sp with procs up, you argument, with every piece of gear, becomes less and less.
Post by
delani
All this for that amount? Really? One trinket/lightweave proc and scorches damage will outshines that amount. i hit 9k+ sp with procs up, you argument, with every piece of gear, becomes less and less.
I'm not entirely sure if you just don't get it, or really don't understand math. But that .16% is at LOWER gear levels, and the .67% is at higher gear levels, which means the higher your gear is (i/e more base crit to work off of, or higher spell power) the more valuable fire blast becomes. As both spells benefit from gear, even though scorch has a higher spell co-efficient (meaning it gets more out of spell power then fire blast) it is not enough of an increase to account for the higher crit that improved fire blast provides.
I really don't need to provide any information to you, other then the fact that your original estimation about it being a decrease was indeed wrong. It doesn't matter how much of an increase it is, because it is an increase. Look back at the beginning of this thread, look at all the snide comments from Storyr saying it was a decrease, and just not worth it. Then when i provide that math showing that its actually a increase he changes his stances and says the talent points aren't work it.
I'm not going to argue talent points with anyone, as it basically boils down to players choice. I'm just showing that if you were to take Improved Fire Blast, it will increase your DPS by a marginal amount. Thats all I'm showing here. You can not take Improved Fire Blast and I honestly wouldn't care. I'm just showing that IF you did, and used Fire Blast every cool down during movement cycles (as in, when fire ball is not available to use for those who think I'm making up phrases) you would get an increase in DPS.
So by all means, keep arguing over semantics, and whats worth what talent points, but i frankly just don't care anymore. Obviously noone wants to do the math to prove my theory wrong, noone outside of Krispy even wants to test it out, so keep saying its not worth it, and doesn't work out, and i'll keep running sims disproving it. You guys were already wrong once by telling me it was a decrease to even think about using fire blast. I've proven that. Now the balls in your court. Prove me wrong, Provide evidence.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.