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Question about minimizing DR on avoidance
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Post by
303025
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
572779
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
marklartank
The confuses arises because Agility grants Dodge chance directly (NOT rating) and exists on its own with no DR.
Only the Ratings experience DR, so those are what you want to balance.
source? i'm pretty sure dodge from agility experience the same DR as any other dodge source (other than talents). the DR formula applies to your dodge after agility contributions, not directly to dodge rating.
Post by
572779
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sakkura
Your amount of dodge chance from dodge rating and agility (on gear and enchants) should be close to your amount of parry chance from parry rating.
Base parry and dodge (including base agility) do not suffer DR.
It's just that base parry and dodge are not too far apart, and the rating conversions and DR curves are the same, so it doesn't make a huge difference whether you look at your ratings or your (total) percentages. Especially since agility isn't an issue anymore except maybe for a ranged weapon when itemization is fail.
Post by
Porcell
Your amount of dodge chance from dodge rating and agility (on gear and enchants) should be close to your amount of parry chance from parry rating.
Base parry and dodge (including base agility) do not suffer DR.
It's just that base parry and dodge are not too far apart, and the rating conversions and DR curves are the same, so it doesn't make a huge difference whether you look at your ratings or your (total) percentages. Especially since agility isn't an issue anymore except maybe for a ranged weapon when itemization is fail.
For warriors your base Parry is 5% and your base Dodge is 3.785%. Everything else is DRed.
So your character sheet tooltip should have your Parry% ~1.2% more than your dodge. i.e. if you have 15% parry on your character sheet and 13.8% dodge on your character sheet, that means you have 10% diminished parry and ~10% diminished dodge, and thus are maximizing your avoidance.
So keep your character sheet Parry at 1.2% over Dodge in order to maximize your diminishing returns.
If you really want to mess with it, make sure you check those numbers while fully raid buffed. But really as long as you are close to that 1.2% number it won't be that much of a difference.
You should be naturally seeing your parry being much higher than your dodge because of the 25% Strength -> Parry Rating. On my gear I am reforging all of my Parry/Mastery items into Dodge/Mastery in order to equal it out.
Post by
Sakkura
1.2% isn't a huge difference. And in some cases you can only barely get to that point with reforging.
Post by
Porcell
1.2% isn't a huge difference. And in some cases you can only barely get to that point with reforging.
Yeah, I'm reforged to the max and I'm still at 10.86% dodge and 13.41% parry. Though I do get another like 0.8% dodge from my Agility trinket stacking up.
Post by
doomlove
anyone have a link to the math on this?
Post by
Sakkura
I don't have "a" link, I have
THE link
.
Post by
doomlove
I don't have "a" link, I have
THE link
.
Nice math there. Just he don't always say what he is refering to.
So for a warrior tank, dodge and parry chance can be no more than 65.63% ?
A hunter can have a 145 % dodge chance, sounds weird. ?
He describe DR as a 1 time deal. But everyone else speak of DR as a kind of debuff, that stacks, and last for 15 sec. refreshed at each stack.
Is there a cap for how many "debuff" there can be?
Still don't see why people think avoidance is maxed if dodge and parry chance is the same. (not the base chances included). ?
Many say, and from ingame it seems, that armor don't have DR. But thats perhaps because he use DR for both Damage Reduction and Deminishing Returns.
Some above say that Warrior pala and DK get 25% of str. as Parry Rating. Are we supposed to be able to see that as a spell ingame ingame?
They could show the drop in stats when DR step in, just like the gain in AP with Vengeance abillity.
I like to sit here and discuss numbers, but how do I explain it to my guild which consist of players and not engineers.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
He describe DR as a 1 time deal. But everyone else speak of DR as a kind of debuff, that stacks, and last for 15 sec. refreshed at each stack.
What?
Are you thinking of Vengeance, maybe?
Post by
doomlove
Are you thinking of Vengeance, maybe?
Yes Vengeance as a debuff and called Deminishing Returns. Thats how I understand it to work.
oh my, why can't Blizz just tell players the rules of the game, instead that we have to guess. Untill we find someone who test and test all day long.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Are you thinking of Vengeance, maybe?
Yes Vengeance as a debuff and called Deminishing Returns. Thats how I understand it to work.
oh my, why can't Blizz just tell players the rules of the game, instead that we have to guess. Untill we find someone who test and test all day long.
Or how about the players stop making random stuff up? All the work has been done for you.
Post by
Sakkura
Nice math there. Just he don't always say what he is refering to.
So for a warrior tank, dodge and parry chance can be no more than 65.63% ?
A hunter can have a 145 % dodge chance, sounds weird. ?
He describe DR as a 1 time deal. But everyone else speak of DR as a kind of debuff, that stacks, and last for 15 sec. refreshed at each stack.
Is there a cap for how many "debuff" there can be?
Still don't see why people think avoidance is maxed if dodge and parry chance is the same. (not the base chances included). ?
Many say, and from ingame it seems, that armor don't have DR. But thats perhaps because he use DR for both Damage Reduction and Deminishing Returns.
Some above say that Warrior pala and DK get 25% of str. as Parry Rating. Are we supposed to be able to see that as a spell ingame ingame?
They could show the drop in stats when DR step in, just like the gain in AP with Vengeance abillity.
I like to sit here and discuss numbers, but how do I explain it to my guild which consist of players and not engineers.
What the what?
Yes, warriors cannot have more than ~65% dodge and ~65% parry from gear. But what's the point, it would just make us nearly invulnerable to melee attacks (or totally invulnerable if you had both at the same time). Hunters have deterrence which makes them almost completely invulnerable, but it only lasts a few seconds and turns their attacks off.
I have no idea where you got that crazy idea of DR being a debuff from, or the stacking. Vengeance is something
completely
different from avoidance DR.
If you don't see why you get the most avoidance out of your avoidance ratings by balancing them, then maybe you should go back and try to understand what the post I linked tried to explain. The more dodge rating (and agility) you put on your gear, the less actual % dodge you get per point of dodge rating (and agility). The more parry rating you put on your gear, the less actual % parry you get per point of parry rating. Hence, to get the most total % dodge + parry, you try to spread your ratings across the two avoidance types.
Armor doesn't have diminishing returns in the sense that you always get the same amount of EH per armor, as long as your health is the same and you don't reach the armor cap. However, the conversion from armor to % damage reduction does have diminishing returns. It's just that % damage reduction becomes more valuable the more you have, and this increasing returns balances out the diminishing returns so the overall value of armor remains the same regardless of how much armor you already have.
You don't see parry from strength as a spell; you see it in your tooltips, and the parry rating from strength is counted in your parry rating numbers.
Post by
doomlove
Ahh tnx, I get the DR effect on avoidance now. the 65% dodge/parry chance is not an actual cap. But a cap AFTER the DR. No matter how much dodge chance you get (like 200%), you will have less than 65.63% chance of dodgeing.
If you have 65% dodge chance in stats, then you will have around 33% chance of dodgeing. And these numbers are getting closer the less % chance you have.
I have no idea where you got that crazy idea of DR being a debuff from, or the stacking. Vengeance is something completely different from avoidance DR.
I got the idea from what a top raid'er told me. Guess he didn't knew. And from what Deminishing Returns is on spells. like if u get Cycloned, for 8 sec, then next time it's only 6 sec next time 4 sec, untill you get immune.
Actually that is not a "debuff" on the caster, but a stacking "buff" on the target.
You don't see parry from strength as a spell; you see it in your tooltips, and the parry rating from strength is counted in your parry rating numbers.
Not in my Tooltips. But there is so many bugs.
That Armor thing I prob have to read over quite some times before I get it "translated" What you say here dosn't match with the math you linked.
You say, Something about Armor to damage reduction have DR but don't think about it, because it have no effect after all.
Well tnx for trying to explain things !
Another thing, as far as I know. You can still dodge a spell.
We have Block and armor as melee attack avoidance, besides the parry and dodge.
For spells we only have magic resistance, besides dodge.
Point is, depending on what mobs is in the raid you enter. perhaps if you calculated your complete avoidance, perhaps it could pay off to raise dodge on the cost of parry. even though you don't have the same amount of avoidance per point. Since you can't parry a spell anyway.
You can't dodge and parry and block at the same time. so how does WoW choose which one to use.
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