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The issue with feral druids
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Post by
178837
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475128
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253268
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Post by
cloudp
How is that relevant against a Priest? For all the snares he puts out? ("all the snares" meaning Mind Flay, which requires the priest TO STAY STILL, completely eliminating the purpose of a snare keeping the distance in the first place)
FYI - Druid can not shift out of Mind Flay because it IS channeled and always 'up'...only way to remove that slow is to Maim (if in range..lol) or Skull Bash, and Mind Flay is not the only slow we can not shift out of either. Hunter frost trap...nope, DK's DnD...nope, Shaman earth bind totem...cant shift out of that either. There are also a number of snares / cc's we can not get out of...Hunter Freezing trap, DK hungering cold, every stun in the book, etc. Funny how everyone who doesn't have a feral druid think we can just shift out of anything (SOOOOO not true).
Context. It helps. 31 Talent Pointers are just that - 31 talent pointers. They're part of an entire tree in an entire class. Don't compare single abilities like that. If Blizz gave priests a spammable instant, mid-powerful heal like Holy Shock, even though it's not that powerful, trust me - it would be worth a 31talent slot. By a long shot. Filling in the exact place where Priests lack would possibly, if the heal was just like Holy Shock, make Priests overpowered. Don't come comparing abilities like that, you'll end up in no conclusion.
I am fine if they want to remove the 'get out of fear' and 'immune to fear' aspect of Berserk, but if they do that the cooldown needs to be reduced other wise any PvP'er worthy of their gear will instant cc our 31 point 3 minute cooldown into uselessness. I would think a 1 minute cooldown like a sub rogues Shadow Dance would be appropriate.
Your argumentation twisting. It burns.
You were talking about Feral versus Shadow. How is Earthbind relevant? How is Hungering Cold relevant? (Also, of course AoE snares that are constant pulses like EB aren't shiftable. I didn't say otherwise, MF has nothing to do with aoe snares.). You implied several times Shadow v Feral was a one sided fight when it's not. You completelly ignored my point to favor yours. You didn't refute me correctly though. It's not like what you're saying is wrong, it just doesn't fit what you were trying to prove.
And I didn't discuss if I agree with Berserk being nerfed or not. I pointed that you're not supporting your claims with anything other than either irrelenvant information or anedoctal evidence. That's not how it goes. Why do you think Berserk without the Fear removal should be on a shorter cooldown? I'm asking this in a specific context. What is Berserk's true strength - the Fear removal? The burst?
Note that I'm not making judgements of my own so far. I'm questioning yours.
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253268
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Post by
cloudp
Listen...If you do not think that MF is VERY useful against a druid (espcially when you have all your dots up on them) keep doing what you are doing, but I am going to guess that you not using things like MF to its full exent is why you find Ferals so troublesome.
With that said lets take a closer look at why the cooldown for Berserk should be lowered if they take away its fear removal/immunity...
Two: Lets take a look at the other 31 point talents that can be made useless by cc...
...Out of 30 specs there is only one; a rogues Shadow Dance and it is on a 1 minute cooldown (if the rogue is cc'ed when he pops his 31 pointer he only has to wait 52 seconds to use it again).
Now, knowing about point one and point two can you tell me a reason why if the fear removal/immunity is taken away Berserk should NOT have its cooldown lowered, duration buffed, or something to compensate for the loss?
I never said Mind Flay isn't useful against a feral, in fact, it blocks the Feral access to anything that's not facing me directly, which is an advantage. I just say that MF's snare in a 1v1 against a feral is NOT it's strength. I don't think there's much of a discussion here - Priests have exactly 2 ways to actually snare a feral that don't involve staying still, which are Psychic Scream (currently Berserkable off) and Psychic Horror (a long cooldown). If the Feral isn't keeping a close to 100% time on target, it's not because Priests are great at snaring.
...DK Summon Gargoyle: No way to stop the damage it puts out (without taking the time to kill it)
...Except Shackle Undead? Or Turn Evil?
...Priest Guardian Spirit: No way to stop the healing buff.
...Excpet you can ALSO cc the Guardian Spirit target while it lasts.
...Paladin Ardent Defender: No way to stop the damage mitigation from happening.
...If you're coming with Protection talents... There's just no sense in establishing that comparison. Ardent Defender is a survival cooldown, not a DPS one.
...same with Resto's Tree of Life. You're comparing offensive cooldowns with defensive cooldowns. There's no sense in it.
Two: OK, Shall we? OFFENSIVE cooldown 31 talent pointers:
Mage
Arcane Power
Dispel Power. Laugh.
Deep Freeze
Dispel. Any stun removal tool.
Warlock
Metamorphosis
Shackle. Turn Evil.
Druid
Starfall
CC.
Berserk
Non-polymorph/Fear CC.
Rogue
Vendetta, Shadow Dance, Killing Spree - KS is far too fast, Vendetta lasts too long, Shadow dance you already pointed.
Hunter: N/A, most are standard nukes.
Shaman
Feral Spirit
Kite during it. Laugh.
Paladin
Zealotry
Exact same issue there is with just about any major dps cooldown. You can be CCd during it. No idea why you didn't count it.
Warrior
Bladestorm
Disarm.
DK
Gargoyle
Mentioned.
You see, you actually skipped a lot of things in your broad generalization. It doesn't work that way. If you're stating something, back it up.
Post by
335633
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706709
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Post by
Wowkopf
I just read the first two posts and that was pretty much it for me. You guys really need to learn your class. Sure, feral might, MIGHT do a lot of damage, but, in my experience, this fight usually does not last long enough to even experience their so called damage. I got a 82 enhance Shaman, an 82 Mage and an 80 Hunter. Feral is not even an issue, period.
Seriously people, is nobody using everything their class offers? This class, on my three high levels is THE easiest class to counter, imo. I was going to roll a feral druid myself, but, there is no way I am going through this. I rolled another Hunter, currently at lvl 47 and feral is pretty much 3 shot, no joke. And I know, bla, bla, at my lvl, classes are not balanced. Sure, that's fine, but, I'm just not gonna get owned all the way to 80 or 85 to finally say "YAY, i got insane damage", screw that.
Convince me to roll that class please. I am also playing with a 66 Disc Priest and every time I get attacked by a feral druid , it takes me 5 sec to even respond out of laziness, because I already know the outcome. I think a lot of you already freak as soon as you get attacked by that class and panic. Learn your class and you'll see how easy it is to beat it.
I am sure I'll get some nice responses to this post but, I got nothing to boast, it's just that I play my classes very very well and use everything my class has to offer. I highly doubt every single feral I encounter is a moron. Maybe so, I doubt it.
Post by
Tiara
I just read the first two posts and that was pretty much it for me. You guys really need to learn your class. Sure, feral might, MIGHT do a lot of damage, but, in my experience, this fight usually does not last long enough to even experience their so called damage. I got a 82 enhance Shaman, an 82 Mage and an 80 Hunter. Feral is not even an issue, period.
Seriously people, is nobody using everything their class offers? This class, on my three high levels is THE easiest class to counter, imo. I was going to roll a feral druid myself, but, there is no way I am going through this. I rolled another Hunter, currently at lvl 47 and feral is pretty much 3 shot, no joke. And I know, bla, bla, at my lvl, classes are not balanced. Sure, that's fine, but, I'm just not gonna get owned all the way to 80 or 85 to finally say "YAY, i got insane damage", screw that.
Convince me to roll that class please. I am also playing with a 66 Disc Priest and every time I get attacked by a feral druid , it takes me 5 sec to even respond out of laziness, because I already know the outcome. I think a lot of you already freak as soon as you get attacked by that class and panic. Learn your class and you'll see how easy it is to beat it.
I am sure I'll get some nice responses to this post but, I got nothing to boast, it's just that I play my classes very very well and use everything my class has to offer. I highly doubt every single feral I encounter is a moron. Maybe so, I doubt it.
Level to 85 and actually do some real arena before telling people to L2P. Sounds like you just level toons and your only pvp experience is BGs.
And currently live, disc priests are the easiest class/spec to kill so your level 66 at 85 would get raped by a feral 1v1. You would try to heal yourself, oom and die. But that isn't saying much because they get raped by most classes, especially melee.
Post by
cloudp
Edit: Hunter: N/A, most are standard nukes.
1/3 of a hunters end talents do any considerable amount of damage, and it is also the endtalent of an incredibly underrepresented specialization.
I misused the word. I mean they're just normal spells added, not cooldowns that (really) significantly influence a short duration. The point stands, and thanks for pointing it.
Post by
361722
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Post by
Azazel
I'm just glad that they get nerfed.
Post by
Tiara
A Warrior unless peeled or cc'ed will maintain close to 100% uptime on target assuming the warrior has a brain somewhere underneath all that plate.
A Paladin unless peeled or cc'ed will maintain close to 100% uptime on target assuming the Paladin has a brain somewhere underneath all that plate.
A Shaman unless peeled or cc'ed will maintain close to 100% uptime on target assuming the Shaman has a brain somewhere underneath all that mail.
A Rogue unless peeled or cc'ed will maintain close to 100% uptime on target assuming the Rogue has a brain somewhere underneath all that leather.
Now, I can see why some Warriors/Paladins/Shaman/Rogues who haven't 100% mastered their class could have some issues, but that applies to everything. It doesn't make you underpowered, and the really smart people don't make the class overpowered.
Feral mobility on live is superior to all of the above. Warriors are not far behind and they are getting nerfed as well. Rogues have the choice of decent mobility with crap damage or good damage with really bad mobility. You have great mobility and awesome damage, not comparable. Oh and rogue mobility is getting nerfed as well which is going to make assassination even worse mobility wise. All assassination rogues have is cloak of shadows, vanish and sprint. You can get cc-ed or slowed when you sprint, and most of the time rogues have to use cloak and vanish together. Combat can get out of movement impairing effects with sprint...but how many combat rogues do you see in PvP? You don't because it is just bad all around.
And ret pallies.....lol. Almost every class can roll over them. Dispel freedom they got nothing but bubble. And they can no longer dispell magic effects.
This isn't about not 100% mastering your class. A lot of classes have horrible mobility and need a dispeller to maintain uptime on their target. If you don't see that and really think that all the other melee's mobility was on par with ferals, then you need to do some actual research or some real pvp.
And I think it is funny that they have reverted some of the changes and you are still whining. You will be able to still shift out of slows.
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