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My Quandry with Judeo-Christian Beliefs
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Post by
Monday
Naturally that's not applicable in every situation (good people conditioned to do bad things by bad people can do bad things), but that pretty much sums of my view of religion.
What about atheism? Good people who may be atheist then go to a Christian and go "Guess what, that glorious afterlife you were believing in? It's all wrong. You'll die and *poof*, no more you."
And that person (who, for the purposes of this story will be convinced) goes home and can't take it, so he kills himself.
Hmm, sounds like a good person doing a bad thing to me.
Gods and all other deities were formed from a lack of knowledge.
I disagree. I believe that God is real.
E: It's the norm for many forms of the Abrahamic religions, which is what we're discussing here.
You basically say that all religion is one of the largest causes for evil, and then list various fundamentalist or evangelical doctrine. Again, evangelism isn't the norm. It isn't not the largest part of religion, and thus religion as a whole shouldn't be stuck with your views like that.
Again, widen your range.
Post by
204878
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Post by
Monday
Sounds like a good person doing good
How is destroying another person's beliefs "doing good"?
I don't see how that's a response to HOA's point unless you think we all believe your beliefs aren't god of the gaps.
Clarify please.
It's only fundie by today's standards, long after Christianity has been dragged kicking and screaming into the modern age by secular values.
That's not the point. Skree constantly sticks those attributes to "religion" as a whole. Going by that, he believes that Christianity/Islam/Judaism/Buddhism/Hinduism/Wicca/what have you are all evil and practice fundamentalism doctrine and brainwash the children.
This discussion is obviously only about Judeo-Christian beliefs, but religion is a very, very broad term, and should be used carefully. It's like me saying politics are evil blah blah blah when it's just me disagreeing with one party, but saying all politics are evil and practice that parties standards.
Post by
Varaconn
There's a relevant quote for that:
"With or without religion, there will still be good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things, but to make good people do bad things -- that takes religion."
Naturally that's not applicable in
every
situation (good people conditioned to do bad things by bad people can do bad things), but that pretty much sums of my view of religion.
It still implies that the negative lessons are within the religion itself, which isn't the case.
Post by
717621
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Post by
Cambo
Way to got for adding to the great discussion Shamified >.>
Next time read all the pages and post in chronological order.
Where on earth has HiVolt gone?
Post by
717621
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Post by
Skreeran
Currently: I feel that god is in no way needed to explain that connection at all. In the earliest turmoils of the universe, gigantic stars went supernova and condensed themselves into all of the elements that make up this galaxy, this solar system, this planet, and even ourselves. Everything is indeed connected, because we are all- and everything else is- made up of the ancient stars that were birthed from the rapid early expansion of the universe. If you don't mind explaining, where do you believe the ''condensed elements of the galaxy' came from in the first place? I'm just wondering because this seems to be the standard aethiest point of view and i can't make any sense of it.We're getting a really good idea of where matter and energy ultimately come from from quantum physics. The Large Hadron Collider is one experiment that we're doing to test a particular GUT (Grant Unified Theory), trying to find the Higgs Boson and all that.
I haven't read Hawking's book "The Grand Design" yet, but supposedly he's figured that the Big Bang was pretty much an inevitability. I'm not going to make pre-judgments about the merits of his theory before I even read it, but he's usually pretty sharp about this sort of thing.
That's not the point. Skree constantly sticks those attributes to "religion" as a whole. Going by that, he believes that Christianity/Islam/Judaism/Buddhism/Hinduism/Wicca/what have you are all evil and practice fundamentalism doctrine and brainwash the children.
This discussion is obviously only about Judeo-Christian beliefs, but religion is a very, very broad term, and should be used carefully. It's like me saying politics are evil blah blah blah when it's just me disagreeing with one party, but saying all politics are evil and practice that parties standards.Well, almost every religion causes bad things, and has very few real benefits that I can perceive (that is to say, benefits that cannot just as easily be obtained without religion; religion can give people hope and a sense of wonder and joy in life, but people without religion can get exactly the same things without God).
Most religions encourage discrimination against homosexuals and women, for example.
And even if in practice most Abrahamic-faith-believing-people are nice folks, the fact of the matter remains that there are horrible things (whether they be historical or legal) laid down clearly in their religious texts that are held up as good and just. That's wrong, and I oppose that.
And again, when I speak out against "religion," it's mostly not just because you believe something different than me. I think you're wrong, and you think I'm wrong, and that doesn't make me mad. What makes me mad is the idea that everyday children like me and my brothers and sisters are being brainwashed against their will into a faith they do not get to choose. Children are not capable of understanding the full implications of religion, let alone choose what to believe, and so I don't think they should have one religion or another forced down their throats from birth.
I already explained what religion did to me. You said up there that it'd be bad if someone was convinced to be an atheist, and couldn't take it and killed themselves. Well, that argument is exactly the wrong one you want to use. I almost did that myself, and no one told me "Guess what, that glorious afterlife you were believing in? It's all wrong. You'll die and *poof*, no more you," I figured it out for myself. And it wracked me with long-term depression and turned me into an anti-social psychopath who only wanted to kill the whole world. At one point, I told myself "If I had the capability of nuking the whole planet, I would do it," and I wasn't just being angsty, or bluffing to myself, or telling myself that I would just so I myself would believe it. I had just had my entire moral structure demolished to nothing, and I truly, passionately hated all life. I lost my girlfriend thanks to my depression, and I was more miserable than I can ever remember being.
And do I blame that on my atheism? No. My realizing the truth was not what broke my life. My realizing that everything I knew was a lie was what did that. And I wouldn't have been so dependent on the lie if it hadn't been one of the cornerstones of everything I knew to be true since a very young age.
So if your religion is relaxed and progressive and you don't force it down your childrens' throats, that's fine, and I have little problem with you, but here in the Bible Belt, and over in the Middle East, and in many of the Catholic nations around the world, that happens on a regular basis, and I have set out to stop it.
Post by
Monday
but here in the Bible Belt, and over in the Middle East, and in many of the Catholic nations around the world, that happens on a regular basis, and I have set out to stop it.
Again, I see where you are coming from. But please, I would love it if you would refrain from sticking all religions with that.
/broken_record
Post by
HoleofArt
I don't see how that's a response to HOA's point unless you think we all believe your beliefs aren't god of the gaps.
Clarify please.
You didn't dispute what I said. You believing God is real is a lack of knowledge in itself. It's a lack of knowledge in society, just like how Poseidon used to be attributed to almost all sea problems, God is being attributed to the creation of the universe (etc.). As society goes on, and we collect more and more evidence and support that God simply isn't a part of the equation, He'll become just like every other deity that's been disproved.
Personally, I view most religions as a divider. Religion just divides people, causes war and other problems, and overall just isn't something that an increasingly educated society should bother with, especially a society focused on equality and justice.
*Not to say that good things haven't stemmed from religion.
Post by
Skreeran
but here in the Bible Belt, and over in the Middle East, and in many of the Catholic nations around the world, that happens on a regular basis, and I have set out to stop it.
Again, I see where you are coming from. But please, I would love it if you would refrain from sticking all religions with that.
/broken_recordAnd as I said, if you don't force religion down your childrens' throat without their responsible consent, and your religion doesn't do any other crimes against people (I don't much like Mormonism's typically discrimination against homosexuals, for example), then I have relatively little problem with you, and you should know who you are. If your religion doesn't do the things I'm talking about, then you should simply say so and I won't bother you. It's the people admits that their religion has in fact done what I'm charging with, and still try to defend those actions whom I tend to argue with.
Post by
Monday
You believing God is real is a lack of knowledge in itself.
No, I don't think it is.
(I don't much like Mormonism's typically discrimination against homosexuals, for example)
just thought I'd say that homosexuals aren't barred from the Church as long as they don't form homosexual relationships.
Granted, this probably doesn't change anything at all, but I just thought I'd get that out there.
Post by
HoleofArt
You believing God is real is a lack of knowledge in itself.
No, I don't think it is.
Lol. Okay.
homosexuals aren't barred from the Church as long as they don't form homosexual relationships.
... Hahahahahahahaha. Yeah, that makes it
all
better. We'll allow you to exist and believe what we do, but we won't let you be happy.
+1 to the church.
Post by
Skreeran
And then there is the LDS's official support of the Boy Scouts ban on homosexuals. The LDS is a big sponser of Boy Scouts, and a major reason the Boy Scouts still don't allow homosexuals to join (you know, besides plain old bigotry) is because the LDS has stated that it will withdraw support if the Boy Scouts admit gays.
That's not to say that every Mormon is the same and they all have the same stance on the issue, but the fact remains that the Chuch of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints discriminates against homosexuals, which I believe is wrong. They are people, just like us, and as long as they aren't harming anyone, they should be allowed to live their own lives as they please.
Post by
Adamsm
You believing God is real is a lack of knowledge in itself.
No, I don't think it is.
Lol. Okay.I agree with Funden here; would I be pleased to have any of the deities I believe in appear to me in the flesh to 'show' that they exist. Sure why not. Do I need them to do so? No, because I do have faith in what I believe. I didn't give up my faith in high school where a group of idiots decided it would be fun to beat on the 'witch' boy, and I still have no desire to stop believing; and since then, I've picked up a few more faiths.
Of course, one could say that your own disbelief in a higher power is lacking as well; I wouldn't say it, and Funden wouldn't, but that's merely because we don't want to make things explode here. But seeing as the thread is degenerating more and more into just straight out bashing, now would be a good time for it to be locked in all honesty.
Post by
138638
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Post by
HoleofArt
If a church doesn't believe in homosexuality and your homosexual don't be part of that religion and if you need to start your own religion.
That shouldn't be necessary. What you're saying is that homosexuals that believe in God are asking to be discriminated against because they were born in a way that somehow makes them "inferior" according to the religion's doctrine, and yet this same doctrine, preaches equality and peace.
Homosexuals shouldn't have to deal with all the ^&*! they get simply because they feel in their hearts that God exists and their savior is Jesus Christ. They shouldn't need to change religions because they're "asking for it"
I agree with Funden here; would I be pleased to have any of the deities I believe in appear to me in the flesh to 'show' that they exist. Sure why not. Do I need them to do so? No, because I do have faith in what I believe.
You're both missing the point I'm trying to make. I'm saying that simply because God exists now as the answer to certain things doesn't mean he will in a hundred years. I was using Poseidon as an example of that. People used to think that Poseidon (or other sea god) was responsible for tsunamis, storms, hurricanes, etc, but as the world discovered what was really going on, the need for this "faith" disappeared, and in comes science.
Believing in something doesn't make it real. Being able to have tangible evidence/scientific theory to back that up, however, makes it far more likely. And as you can see today, we have quite a lot of it, making God seem less and less likely.
Of course, one could say that your own disbelief in a higher power is lacking as well;
No, you really couldn't. I'm basing my disbelief off of facts and theories supported with evidence and proof. Basing something off of faith would be the opposite, because you have absolutely nothing but your word.
Post by
138638
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Post by
138638
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Post by
HoleofArt
You could just as easily do the same thing but with homosexuality instead of divorce
And while I understand that, I just really feel it shouldn't be necessary. They have every right to be happy just like everyone else.
They aren't trying to sneak through any loop-holes like King Henry VIII, they just want to be happy and accepted, and I hate that certain religions prevent that.
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