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Is it fair to use PvE gear in PvP?
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Post by
sfagias
Ofcourse shadowmounre is an advantage! But whoever has it, has earned it fair and square. That is the point of the game! To get better gear to further your advantage over others. Why can't you see it? It is not unfair to use the advantage that the game itself offers you....
And the "casters can't have it though" argument does not stand! Casters have other mechanics.
Post by
682479
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Synectics
Take that 200dps into a PvP environment (lets reduce it to 100dps, as you certainly aren't dps'ing the whole time in arena), and you have a similar (trivial) difference.
Without resorting to the argument I use (PvE is the primary game in WoW), I just don't see how you can justify PvE items are fine in PvP, but not the reverse.
I would again say it's completely fine. You're choosing a different itemization by using one or the other.
What should be kept in mind is that the proc on Shadowmourne isn't exactly great in PvP. You could end up in a CC chain and get little benefit from the passive buff it gives after getting the stack. In fact, getting the full 10 stack could take quite a bit of time in a PvP environment.
On the flipside, a legendary PvP weapon would no doubt have plenty of Resilience -- a stat that is completely useless in PvE. Now granted, it's possible that a legendary PvP weapon, even itemized this way, could be better than the closest PvE equivalent. But nonetheless, that Resilience is wasted item budget if you're not using it.
While the item level would point to a legendary being a large jump in effectiveness, the reality is far from that. And again -- we're talking about one of the hardest weapons to attain in the game. If someone wants to use it for a theoretical increase in gear, well... I just don't see why they shouldn't be able to. :P
Post by
320076
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Post by
105944
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Post by
Monjaru
goshad and Monjaru, if you got your heads our of your asses for one second you would see that neither of you said anything at all constructive in your last post. Neither of you are interested in actually discussing the title of this thread, you're just here to make annoying and pointless comments.
Alright, don't even try to play this card. Seriously. First of all, the only reason my last post was less-than-optimal content-wise was because you chose to completely ignore my last two or three posts. If you would stop skipping around proper debate etiquette, you might be able to get a point across properly.
And second, most of what I said in the last post, jokingly stated or otherwise, was said for a reason very much relevant to the discussion. Minus your personal attacks, of course.
What is your argument now? That because Shadowmourne isnt gamebreaking that it doesnt matter if people use it? Thats what you're both saying now. I've already said that it isnt gamebreaking so theres no need for either of you to clog up this thread by stating that to me.
And that's exactly how I know you don't understand the argument. The very fact that it isn't gamebreaking, (by contrast, it's actually very trivial) is all the support we need to prove it isn't at all unfair. By very definition, "unfair" means to be uneven or unequal, so if the advantage isn't enough to make a definitive change in the win/loss percentage of any given arena team, it isn't unfair.
You can say we're not understanding you all you like, but the fact is, we do. We've understood what you've been saying from the start. The fact that you've been dodging points and changing your argument throughout the entirety of this discussion gives me enough proof to rightfully state that you have no idea what you're talking about, and never did.
You jumped into a debate with no real knowledge of what you were arguing for or against.
Monjaru (and goshad to some extent) you have agreed with me that it is an
advantage
,
Please,
please
stop saying this. You've said this about a half a dozen times now; we are in agreement on this statement. What you are either choosing to ignore (like all those points I've made in the last couple pages that you chose to skip over and refused to return to when I called you out on it) or simply not comprehending is that being an advantage does not automatically make it unfair, and because of a dinstinct lack of actual impact in PvP, this particular advantage is far from unfair.
however small it is (there is no way to measure this. Personally I actually think ttheres quite a difference, shadowmourne does good burst damage, maybe neither of you have ever played against one. But like I said, no way to measure, so we cant discuss it). It is still an advantage.
Goshad has given more than enough evidence in the form of experience in last season's PvP that SM is not nearly as big of an advantage as you seem to think it is. Personally, I actually think the reason you refuse to see reason is because you've convinced yourself that SM is a huge bonus in PvP for the sole reason that it's a Legendary. But that's just an educated guess based on your current level of stubborness to accept basic logic.
Also, "It's an advantage." count for this post: 2
Furthermore I've said that it isnt available to everyone. goshad can claim that it actually is available to everyone now. Even if that were the case, and it is available to anyone who wants it now, there are 2 problems. 1) Casters have no legendary weapon to use, nor do other melee like rogues. 2) When ICC just came out Shadowmourne was limited in number and there definitely were not enough fragments yet for everyone who was willing to put in the effort to have one.
And now you're repeating yourself again. Why do you keep bringing up that there were less Shadowmournes when ICC first came out? It's irrelevant. Unless you're trying to say that there being less at that time should have an effect on whether it's usable now? I don't see why that should be.
Regardless, in any form of PvP that matters (i.e. Anything outside of duels and 1v1 world PvP), SM has very little sway over the outcome, and therefore is hardly meritable for a ban.
Therefore it hasnt been, and still isnt, a legendary available to all who can put in the effort to get it. This makes it unfair. Therefore, it doesnt matter how gamebreaking this tiny, tiny advantage might be, it should technically not be allowed in arena.
How many times do I have to say it? Being unfair to the playerbase as a whole (i.e. Not being available to everyone) and being unfair in PvP (i.e. Negatively impacting the PvP experience of those without one) are two COMPLETELY different things. The sooner you figure this out, the sooner we can end this stupid discussion.
I've explained in in such simple terms now, I'm not explaining it again. I wont be responding to any childish comments this time. Either actually make an argument more than one sentence long and I might read it.
You can "simplify" your side of the argument all you like; it still doesn't make sense.
And honestly, you're still in no position to be making comments like these considering there are still about a dozen points that I made (all plenty more than one sentence long) that you
still
haven't made any attempt to address.
So until
you
make a legitimate argument and stop dodging points and ignoring proper etiquette, lose the high-and-mighty attitude. It just makes you look like an ass.
Post by
354743
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320076
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688014
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105944
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Post by
335609
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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105944
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237563
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Post by
sfagias
Those 2.8k rated Shadowmourne players might have little skill but were carried by their weapon - how can you prove otherwise? You cant.
Shadowmourne CANNOT carry you a lot over 1.8k rating. Or if it does, it will not take you further than 2k. After that, you have to rely on your skill, awareness, and your teammates. Gear is a minor factor there.
also, please say something different than "an advantage is still an advantage and therefore unfair" if you want your posts to make sense. As I have previously said, this advantage that Shadowmourne gives is acquired by the player's effort, and dedication to his guild, and therefore has any right to use it as he pleases. It is a competitive game, not a game where everyone is supposed to be equal without really doing something special. You go the extra mile, you get rewarded.
The point in it was that when ICC came out and there were only a handful of people who were lucky enough to get it first, there were many other people who physically could not have obtained it by that time. The handful who did have it therefore had an advantage in PvP - how can you classify that as a 'fair' advantage, considering they did not necessarily put in any more effort than the other raiders?
What? Are you serious? Only the best raiders of the best guilds got shadowmourne first. And believe me, it takes more effort to get it. You need to show you are worth it to your guildmates, you need to go the extra mile to get it.
Let's just end it here saying that what you consider "fair" is everyone being on the same level in a competitive game without any real effort. Kind of like a formula 1 with every car having the same engine, sharing the same pit stop time with just the driver's skill playing it's role.
This will never happen though. because it is a competitive sport. And in competition everyone needs to do the best he can to get that 1st place. And everything is a part of it. The engine and the condition of the car(gear), the driver's skill(the one using the gear, in this case, let's say shadowmourne), and the pit stop team's performance, which needs to be top notch(in this case your other partners in arenas).
Post by
Synectics
I dont need many stats: Hit isnt needed cause I try to be always behind.
I stopped reading right there.
EDIT (because I tried again):
Expertise? WTF is that?
Just........ /facedesk.
Post by
335609
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Post by
Monjaru
As I'm sure you'll just brush off goshad's post on the grounds that you can't follow (or rather, can't be bothered to follow) his post, I'll have to respond as well.
Right, I wont repeat my argument again, I will assume that both of you (goshad and Monjaru) understand it by now. Monjaru your post actually made sense and had decent points, goshad you need to stop singling out sentences, taking them out of context and then belittling them one by one, its the reason I dont want to reply to any of your posts. You dont listen to people's posts, you just quote out of context and then comment without taking into account anything else that person said.
Actually, considering how little you know about reading in context (I can't believe you've gone to those classes I recommended yet...), it's probably not smart to call someone out on problems with context. Reason being: you're probably doing it wrong.
In addition, ass-kissery won't get you anywhere with me. You say that I made sense and presented good points, however you failed to respond to any of them (most of them completely disproved the validity of your argument) and after the fact, you still haven't admitted you're wrong.
The only thing I can deduce from such a situation is that you've finally come to the conclusion that you've been wrong all along, but aren't ready to admit it yet (read: trolling) or are too proud to admit it.
And whether you care to admit it or not, goshad is just as good (more than likely, better) at dismantling faulty arguments as I am. He just goes about it in a different (and generally more condescending) manner than I do. It's probably why you don't like reading his posts; he's intimidating, I know.
Anyway - you both keep saying that Shadowmourne has 'little impact'. ie, skill is more important. I agree that skill has a larger impact and skill>gear. Simple. You should not, however, start claiming that you can measure what kind of impact a better weapon has in pvp - it cant be measured. This isnt PvE where you can just test out your DPS on a dummy and look at the increase. For all we know, it could actually be more important than skill. Those 2.8k rated Shadowmourne players might have little skill but were carried by their weapon - how can you prove otherwise? You cant.
Goshad's already compiled a list of the ways we can and reposted it several times. Read it, please.
Next: tell me, in any case, does it matter how small the advantage is?
Clearly, it does. Otherwise, we wouldn't waste our time responding to you.
It doesnt matter at all how gambreaking it may or may not be, if it gives an advantage of any kind it should technically not be allowed in arena, since it is an advantage which is unfair (I have explained many times why).
And that's exactly how I know you don't understand the argument. The very fact that it isn't gamebreaking, (by contrast, it's actually very trivial) is all the support we need to prove it isn't at all unfair. By very definition, "unfair" means to be uneven or unequal, so if the advantage isn't enough to make a definitive change in the win/loss percentage of any given arena team, it isn't unfair.
You can say we're not understanding you all you like, but the fact is, we do. We've understood what you've been saying from the start. The fact that you've been dodging points and changing your argument throughout the entirety of this discussion gives me enough proof to rightfully state that you have no idea what you're talking about, and never did.
You jumped into a debate with no real knowledge of what you were arguing for or against.
The point in it was that when ICC came out and there were only a handful of people who were lucky enough to get it first, there were many other people who physically could not have obtained it by that time. The handful who did have it therefore had an advantage in PvP - how can you classify that as a 'fair' advantage, considering they did not necessarily put in any more effort than the other raiders? I did not say it in any way affected PvP now, I am just using it to illustrate how an advantage should be classed as unfair if it is not available to everyone.
And the whole time, I've been trying (futilely, apparently) to explain to you that due to the lack of any real game-changing power behind SM, whether some people have it or not, it isn't unfair. You're misconstruing the argument. Yet again.
If you don't plan on addressing points at some point, I'd like to recommend (aside from those classes) you stop posting. You're only digging a deeper hole for yourself.
Post by
Synectics
Those 2.8k rated Shadowmourne players might have little skill but were carried by their weapon - how can you prove otherwise? You cant.
What if there was a 2.8k rated player who had three Rare gems instead of three Epic gems? Would everyone rated higher than him really be getting "carried" by their better gems?
This isnt PvE where you can just test out your DPS on a dummy and look at the increase.
That's exactly what you should do. Your logic skills are severely flawed if you somehow think this isn't the case.
Look at any PvE raider. They test on dummies. However, many raid encounters don't allow them to just stand there and run their rotation. They have to move, they have to blow defensive cooldowns... their DPS won't be the same on a dummy as in a raid scenario. I fail to see where having Resilience on your gear suddenly means that this changes.
Post by
354743
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Post by
camy009
Sorry to attack an older post, but haven't found time to read this forum.
"Skill>Gear" has absolutely nothing to do with this thread
except for the fact that it has everything to do with this thread
multiple players in the top 100 worldwide last season never did any even
slightly competitive PvE
their lack of 277 trinkets and weapons didn't prevent them from getting 2.2k and latter- 3k
just like its not preventing
anyone in this thread
from doing the same thing
Your example is flawed one. First he is wearing an ICC rep ring. This is technically PvE, however I'll accept it as being easy to get.
But to the fun flaw! Your example is a Hpally in S8 who need resilience due to spell cleaves being able to nuke them hard. Also, you can read through his achieves to find that he did raid during S6 when Hpallys wanted PvE gear... Also he is Furious glad(S6)... Why not look at other classes?
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/player/Warrior/
I stopped at 40 chars, but 36 were wearing PvE, 3 were unable to be found, and one was wearing RP gear.
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