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Is it fair to use PvE gear in PvP?
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Post by
335609
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Post by
Monjaru
True enough. But still, Goshad can fight whoever he wants and make them sound stupid; I can only fight people who have no idea what they're talking about. So I think I should get priority.
Post by
105944
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Post by
335609
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Post by
688014
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Post by
105944
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Post by
Monjaru
@Monjaru, I remember everything you said, but
you actually backed away, not me
.
Really? The entirety of my last, unanswered
post
would beg to differ.
All you kept saying over and over (and over, and over...) was:
a) that Shadowmourne required effort and therefore PvEers should be able to use it. I disagreed by saying that it isnt a matter of effort, because not everyone has access to it. Read the last 2 paragraphs of my last post. So far I think I'm making sense. (you at least have to admit this - I think you're wrong but at least I admit that you make sense).
Again, it's the difference between being unfair to the whole of the playerbase and being unfair in PvP specifically. As I said before, if you can't make that distinction, you won't understand the argument until you do.
And:
b) for some reason you seemed to keep saying 'Shadowmourne isnt an instant win', I still dont understand why you were saying this, since the only reason to say this would be if I said the phrase 'Shadowmourne instantly means a loss for the other team lawl', which I never did. I am saying it gives an advantage - we agreed on that. And it is unfair because not everyone, casters included, can get access to it.
If I reiterate the point without adding the words "Shadowmourne" and "instant win" into a sentence beforehand, will you actually pick up on it? I'm doubtful, but I figure it's worth a shot. Here, first time I said it (minus the distracting taboo words):
They still have to play hard, coordinate well with their team, and use their CDs as wisely as they know how to. It just gives them more leeway in a close match, which is hardly "unfair".
And second time...
A player on a team, wielding SM, still needs to play at the top of his/her game to succeed. As such, having the advantage is not unfair.
If you can learn to stop tunnelvisioning on a single phrase and read paragraphs as a whole, you'll find you tend to understand things a lot better a lot more often.
Post by
688014
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Post by
105944
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354743
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Post by
Monjaru
And so the pile of unanswered points grows...
In all fairness, I think you've said "Now, you have admitted that Shadowmourne gives an advantage, yes?" far more than I've said, "Shadowmourne isn't an instant win." By my count, I said that all of two times.
Also, you've said all along that you know it doesn't automatically ensure victory for the wielder, but the fact you've debated this long that it is an unfair item that should be banned from PvP (i.e. A Big Deal) betrays otherwise. The way you've talked about it all through this thread gives the impression that you consider it to be some game-changing item that needs to be removed so people don't have to deal with the
agonizing torment
of facing someone with it. You're turning a petty complaint which garners no real sway over the outcome of arena matches into a horrible wrong-doing of unfathomable proportions that needs to be fixed ASAP.
Now, you have admitted that Shadowmourne gives an advantage, yes? And I've said and explained many times that the advantage isnt fair (yes, goshad, even if it is 'minimal' - you didnt ever reply to my last post). So, if Shadowmourne gives an advantage, and it isnt universally acceptable, why is it fair?
You've explained why it isn't fair plenty of times, sure. Unfortunately, you were wrong every single time. And
I
explained quite clearly why that is plenty of times too. There's no need for me to repeat it all again for you.
My advice is this: go take some courses on reading in context and analyzing and comprehending what you read, come back, and re-read this whole argument. I guarantee you'll understand things a whole lot better.
Post by
688014
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Post by
Monjaru
We are not talking about any of these things. Shadowmourne gives an advantage - this is fact, even Monjaru agreed with me on this. We are not discussing whether it's gamebreaking or not, we are discussing whether its fair or not. I agree with you - it is not gamebreaking (like Ive said many times), and I agree that the other factors you mentioned are more important. But that does nothing to help you. The fact remains that Shadowmourne gives an advantage. And you also have no right to say that it's a minimal advantage by any means because there is no way to measure it.
Correction:
you're
not talking about whether it's game-breaking or not (which is why you're wrong, btw; one of the reasons, anyway).
I dont think you're used to making good points.
Lol.
"because Shadowmourne isnt gamebreaking, its fair".
Now you're starting to catch on!
What I'm saying though is that it might not be gamebreaking but it gives a boost to DPS and in particular burst damage (lethal in PvP) which lots of other people, and in particular casters, have nothing to pit against.
Damn it. One step forward and two steps back, bro.
Edit: And Monjaru, nice dodge:
You've explained why it isn't fair plenty of times, sure. Unfortunately, you were wrong every single time. And I explained quite clearly why that is plenty of times too. There's no need for me to repeat it all again for you.
Absolute rubbish.
(irony) In it's truest form.
Post by
105944
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Post by
Synectics
there are plenty of ways to measure it-
by itemization as compared to other items
its item level as compared to the "next best thing"
the performance of the classes which it is available too
its influence on the match as compared to other, more common, variables
-all of which support my argument
Exactly. As I've pointed out, Shadowmourne WILL hit harder than any other weapon in the game. But it still has zero Resilience, and less Stamina than the 277 PvP 2h axe. It has a very obvious drawback as a PvP weapon without that itemization. But that could be offset by actually using PvP trinkets -- which a good majority of high-ranked players use, as opposed to PvE DPS trinkets.
That alone should tell you that Shadowmourne isn't going to be the deciding factor in a fight -- the fact that high-ranked players choose not to use it.
Post by
682479
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Post by
105944
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Post by
Synectics
Let me turn the debate around slightly and propose a related question.
Firstly, "BiS" is a bit more subjective in PvP. Some players stack more Resilience. Some others go for damage once they have enough survivability.
But be that as it may, I understand what you mean, and I've already posed this question several times. And as I've pointed out, the most hardcore PvE players would get their asses into the arena and grind their butts off to get that weapon, trinket, or whatever piece of gear it is -- even if it's only a theoretical 1% increase in DPS.
And that's the most hardcore PvE players. The ones who aren't will use what they have readily available, and probably QQ over the fact that those hardcore players are 1% better... even though they bust their ass to do so. :P
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688014
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