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Is it fair to use PvE gear in PvP?
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Post by
Synectics
I just fail to see this big thick line you're painting between PvP and PvE content. It's all one game.
EDIT: This is easily comparable to racing. Being a great driver will only get you so far. But at some point, you need a better car. At some point, the other guy is going to be just as good a driver as you, but he'll have a better, faster car. Which means you need to get under your hood and start tinkering.
The whole point is this:
I don't think spending days of played time raiding is within the normal scope of what a PvPer
would be expected to do
You are right. And that's why the BEST players will go above and beyond what is expected to get that extra 1% effectiveness. Again, once skill is not a factor (e.g. players are at the exact same skill level), then it comes down to the numbers on the gear. And the best players want that extra 1%.
And you're trying to say that if they go above and beyond what is the norm, it's unfair. They aren't cheating or exploiting the game in any way at all. They're simply using the absolute best tool -- just as a race car driver will use the absolute best engine he can, even if he has to scour the earth to get it. It's not part of racing, but it will allow him to win.
Post by
sfagias
There is no limit on the amount of shadomournes players can get in the realm. If everyone joined a guild raid of 25, and has shown they are worth it, they would get a shadowmourne. These non-axe weilders have other mechanics that help them cope with that. Be it CCs, heals, defensive cooldowns. Healers got one legendary in ulduar, caster dps will get one in cata. It is a cycle, every class will get a legendary.
Healing counts as an advantage. Like shadowmourne counts as an advantage, and any class mechanic counts as an advantage over certain classes. They are all part of the game. that is why there are no 1v1 rated arenas. Blizzard knows that it is impossible to balance a game in 1v1 combat. In 1v1 a player with shadowmourne that knows how to play does not rely on anyone. He has the high ground indeed. And so does the healer. However in any arenas, they both rely on their teammates. Noone is going to take the game by himself, at least not on high rated matches.
Post by
Monjaru
I am going to say this one last time. I never said Shadowmourne ensured a win. If you still think this is what I am trying to say then you are just plain stupid, since I have said it in 2 posts already on this page.
And, believe it or not, I never said you did think that. If you had any idea how to read in context you'd understand that. You're seeing a set of words amongst an entire paragraph and refusing to look at everything around that set of words.
You are still admitting in many places that it gives an advantage, which is what I'm arguing.
Not, it's not. You're arguing that the advantage it gives is unfair, which is another issue entirely. We've established that having SM gives an advantage to the wielder over those who do not have it. It has higher top-end damage and better overall DPS than the next-best-thing; it's self-explanatory, so stop bringing it up.
First of all this is a weak argument because there isn't really any way at all to back this up. Secondly, it actually does make quite a difference, as warriors in particular do a lot more damage wielding Shadowmourne. We're both agreed then that this is an advantage, yes?
Firstly, you're doing it backwards. I don't need to prove that upgrading a single piece of gear from the second-best thing to the BiS isn't going to effect your gameplay that much. That's to be assumed. If anything,
you
need to prove that a single piece of gear being upgraded from "next-best" to "best" will definitively improve your win percentage in arenas. Otherwise, you have no basis to say that using it in PvP is "unfair".
And secondly, yes, we've established (several times) that SM is more powerful than the next-best thing. That still fails to serve the purpose of proving it's in any way unfair to use in PvP.
In this context I actually would say that all advantages are unfair. That is, all advantages that aren't based on a person's skill or the amount of effort they put in is unfair. Wrathful gear over relentless gear for example is a fair advantage because the person wearing relentless
could
get wrathful gear as well. However, Shadowmourne is something which is not available to everyone - it is a legendary which there might not be enough of for everyone in a guild to have one, and most classes cant use this legendary at all and have to settle for epic. That is an advantage which is unfair.
Again, it's the difference between being unfair to the whole of the playerbase and being unfair in PvP specifically. As I said before, if you can't make that distinction, you won't understand the argument until you do.
Post by
vincistis
I thinks that yes, it is fair. Because in this World of Warcraft bosses of unimaginable power drop a seemingly infinite number of items when they revive every tuesday, and the people who have slain their enemies, may it be horde or alliance are rewarded with a currency to buy gear to slay more horde or alliance. So, when you say, "is bringing a gun to a knife fight fair?" I say, "you should've brought a bazooka."
Edit: this might be a little hard to understand as my analogy is poorly explained but what i'm saying is that it is fair because its war.
Post by
TheMediator
This is going no where. Straight up, the most skilled player isn't necessarily the winner in the arena. In a "fair contest", the winner is the most skilled player. Therefore, seems pretty safe to say the arena then isn't a fair contest. You aren't necessarily more skilled if you win in the arena... although from the sound of it, a lot of these kids are probably bad and hope to aspire to having enough of a gear edge to beat other players who are much better, not that they actually do well now.
edit: this might be a little hard to understand as my analogy is poorly explained but what i'm saying is that it is fair because its war.
Except that arena isn't supposed to be a no-holds barred war, it is supposed to be a competitive environment for PvPers to show who is the best. Supposed to be I guess being the key word.
Meh, at least rated battlegrounds are coming with the expansion, so legendaries will be smoothed out by the number of players involved and a bigger element of strategy being involved.
Post by
Synectics
In a "fair contest", the winner is the most skilled player. Therefore, seems pretty safe to say the arena then isn't a fair contest.
I have to agree with goshad here. Your misunderstanding of arenas is starting to show. :P
Arenas have never been completely fair -- and it's never been because of gear, but because of class balancing. For the same reason that a duel is never a completely fair fight (how often does scissors beat rock?), having such a small number of players involved means the team composition matters more than, say, a 10vs10 environment.
although from the sound of it, a lot of these kids are probably bad and hope to aspire to having enough of a gear edge to beat other players who are much better, not that they actually do well now.
And it seems like you're the one hiding behind the childish excuse that because a player has
slightly
better gear, you can never win. I hate to be blunt, but either gear up or get out.
It's not like bad players walk around with Shadowmourne. PvE raiders, sure. But if a PvP player is already wearing full arena-acquired gear and have a 2k+ arena rating... you really think they're a bad player trying to overcome a skill deficit by going and acquiring what is arguably the hardest piece of gear to get in the game?
Post by
TheMediator
Arenas have never been completely fair -- and it's never been because of gear, but because of class balancing. For the same reason that a duel is never a completely fair fight (how often does scissors beat rock?), having such a small number of players involved means the team composition matters more than, say, a 10vs10 environment.
I've already acknowledged class comp is a big issue. So... because certain team comps are imbalanced against others, they should be more imbalanced? Uh huh. That makes PERFECT sense.
And did you really just say that full arena gear is hard to get? Time consuming maybe (having to wait to get your points each week), but I don't remember a single season where I ever ran into rating requirement issues (although rating requirements didn't come out until season 3, but that season wasn't really a problem).
If my understanding of arena rating inflations is correct, isn't 2k rating the equivalent of 1750-1800 in TBC? LoL.
Post by
Synectics
I've already acknowledged class comp is a big issue. So... because certain team comps are imbalanced against others, they should be more imbalanced? Uh huh. That makes PERFECT sense.
My point is, a few item levels of difference in ONE piece of gear is minuscule compared to any other balancing issues. Not to mention that this item can only be used by a few classes.
In fact, I'd like to once more point out -- there is no PvE equivalent to Shadowmourne. What's so hard to get about that? It's a legendary weapon. It's meant to have no equal. You just seem hung up on the fact that it comes from a PvE raid. Again, there is no line dividing PvP and PvE gear. It's different itemization, and comes from different sources. If you want the hardest hitting (note: NOT the best, but hardest hitting) weapon in the game, you need to do a PvE raid...
and
be a Paladin, DK, or Warrior.
And did you really just say that full arena gear is hard to get?
No. I didn't. I pointed out that people with full PvP gear are more than likely pretty serious about the game, and are more than likely great players. They aren't hoping Shadowmourne makes up a skill deficit -- and if you think that this single item WOULD make up a skill deficit, you're overestimating it.
Post by
105944
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
TheMediator
As for "fairness", it is starting to seem like to me an issue of people believing they deserve to be respected for winning with what others see an unfair advantage. You aren't going to get their respect, and you likely won't be able to convince them you are good if you have an advantage over someone. If you can't accept that, well, that sucks to be you, people typically don't look highly of people who come into a competitive situation with an advantage.
and if you think that this single item WOULD make up a skill deficit, you're overestimating it.
Quoting myself:
a lot of these kids are probably bad and
hope to aspire to
having enough of a gear edge to beat other players who are much better, not that they actually do well now.
Whatever, I think I'm done arguing. I'm going to give WoW a shot in cataclysm, and if this becomes an issue, I'll leave.
I guess I'll leave by posing two questions to this post:
except for the fact that it has everything to do with this thread
multiple players in the top 100 worldwide last season never did any even slightly competitive PvE
their lack of 277 trinkets and weapons didn't prevent them from getting 2.2k and latter- 3k
just like its not preventing anyone in this thread from doing the same thing
Were they the best on their battlegroup? And what comps did they run relative to other top teams?
Post by
105944
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Synectics
Were they the best on their battlegroup? And what comps did they run relative to other top teams?
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/5v5/US/
Most 5's seem to run Hunter/Mage, Paladin, Priest, Shaman, Warlock.
The handful of Ret Paladins in the top ten I looked at didn't use Shadowmourne, but Wrathful weapons. Only Warrior I found wielded a Wrathful weapon. Only one Death Knight in the top 10 used Shadowmourne, on a team with two registered DKs. The other used a Wrathful weapon.
EDIT: Suffice it to say, out of the three classes that can use Shadowmourne, not one of the highest ranked players of any of those classes uses it (in fact, highest ranked DK is one of the only DKs I saw that dual-wields). I think this is saying something here.
Post by
368348
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monjaru
I can't believe
loads
of you have taken this as an example of shadowmourne not being important
Who are you talking to?
Post by
688014
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
105944
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
688014
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
354743
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
105944
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monjaru
Aw. Now that he can argue with Goshad, Gotyouall thinks he's too good to answer my points. Thanks a lot, Goshad. You just stole my entertainment for the night.
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