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Is it fair to use PvE gear in PvP?
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Post by
Monjaru
For just an incredibly minor cost of survivability...
And your argument just changed completely. When we're talking about swapping out a trinket or a weapon for a PvE equivalent, the cost to survivability is minor, but when you're talking about set bonuses and swapping out the primary pieces of PvP gear, your argument goes right out the window if you're still trying to claim the loss to survivability as "minor".
That's a crap ton of stam and resilience you're tossing out for those offensive powers. And not to use your own word against you, but... every trinket effect you described does absolutely nothing for you when you're being LoSed; it is a 100% damage reduction after all. The affect of resilience and stam in an arena match is near constant, whereas most effects granted by PvE gear are avoidable.
They make a big difference in PvE because the bosses attack in a set manner, on a set time table (barring fights like Faction Champs, of course). They are not nearly as powerful in arena because people are smart (once you get past 2k or so) and can react to such an increase in damage. They can LoS you, they can stun or CC you, and they can set you as the new focus because you're using PvE gear and will more than likely go down more easily.
Post by
camy009
And your argument just changed completely. When we're talking about swapping out a trinket or a weapon for a PvE equivalent, the cost to survivability is minor, but when you're talking about set bonuses and swapping out the primary pieces of PvP gear, your argument goes right out the window if you're still trying to claim the loss to survivability as "minor".
That's a crap ton of stam and resilience you're tossing out for those offensive powers. And not to use your own word against you, but... every trinket effect you described does absolutely nothing for you when you're being LoSed; it is a 100% damage reduction after all. The affect of resilience and stam in an arena match is near constant, whereas most effects granted by PvE gear are avoidable.
200 resilience is equal to 2 pieces. This is not a large resilience loss. In fact, people often just use medallion of the horde/alliance to make up for this loss instead of using titan-forged trinkets. So, they lose 50 resilience and gain a set bonus. As for the four piece bonuses (sacred shield T8), Hpallys didn't need that resilience as their role in TSG, and Beastcleaves was to stand in the back and have their team do the pressure. Any player stupid enough to try and run through a DK+war or Enhance+hunter in order to attack the healer would drop dead.
If you believe that 1k resilience is too low... I question how much resilience you use.
They make a big difference in PvE because the bosses attack in a set manner, on a set time table (barring fights like Faction Champs, of course). They are not nearly as powerful in arena because people are smart (once you get past 2k or so) and can react to such an increase in damage. They can LoS you, they can stun or CC you, and they can set you as the new focus because you're using PvE gear and will more than likely go down more easily.
Those trinkets proc on spellcast, you can't use them whenever you want... How is this used to predict when they should be used on certain phases? You're going to stop casting for 15 seconds in order save the proc for another phase? But this is off-topic.
They stack gear so they can do competitive damage that is required to be high
And this is where the argument loses validity.
People can, have, and will, get gladiator (and r1) without running pve content.
Just went through the top 100 warriors in the world... Not one was using full PvP (This is including Ashenband as PvP since it's easy to obtain). So... Where does my argument lose validity?
May I remind you that blizzard balances warriors around ArP and not Str for PvP. Thus making ArP the most important stat for warriors which unattainable from PvP gear besides neck and garbage Titan-forge pieces.
Post by
250582
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
camy009
They stack gear so they can do competitive damage that is required to be high
And this is where the argument loses validity.
People can, have, and will, get gladiator (and r1) without running pve content.
Just went through the top 100 warriors in the world... Not one was using full PvP (This is including Ashenband as PvP since it's easy to obtain). So... Where does my argument lose validity?
May I remind you that blizzard balances warriors around ArP and not Str for PvP. Thus making ArP the most important stat for warriors which unattainable from PvP gear besides neck and garbage Titan-forge pieces.
You've entirely missed the point here. If people can get the highest honours available in pvp without using pve gear (again, which they can, have and will continue to do), then claiming pve gear is a requirement becomes b/s. That is where your argument loses validity.
This along with the fact that
Harthal
was using as close to full pvp gear as conceivably possible. His one pve piece being
normal
dbw from suarfang.. that damn pve'er! It must've taken him literally fourty minutes to down those first four bosses in ICC. And before you retort, keep in mind that the time and effort taken for him to have gotten dbw could have been quite possibly less than the amount taken to get a rep ring.
Ps: It's off season, checking armories holds as much value as claiming you know them all personally. Seeing as many of them are in prot/fury spec with their raiding gear on. Though given that checking the sk top100 is a terribly tedious task, (triple alliteration wordscore!) I find it hard to believe you genuinely went through each and every one of them without realising this already.
Pps: I applaud you for responding to my entire post last time. /Applaud.
He's also wearing polar bear claw bracers. He's stacking resilience like a lot of players have tried due to the change for resilience. But this was after arena season.
As for the rest of your other post. It's off topic, but if you insist. You say that people should have to do every part to excel.... So, why isn't PvP gear BiS for some pieces in PvE? Why don't dailies give advantages you can't get from anywhere else? Are these not part of WoW? Why don't these give upgrades... According to you they should.
And why don't I do it? Because I tried it, laughed at it, and got bored of it. Why would I want to do literally the same thing over and over and over for an entire season? The boss literally does not change. PvPers that actually do PvE for gear just laugh at the raids. Rotations are faceroll and bosses are overly simple. If this was burning crusade, maybe I would play.
This is why PvPers don't raid.
Edit: Also, try just ctrl clicking each name and just ctrl+w when looking at characters.
Post by
105944
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MrSCH
@goshadstep2lose: what on earth was that? Was that post supposed to be constructive?
quit trying to belittle the argument as it stands, its very obvious and kinda sad
It just proves my point that the only thing you can do here is quote out of context, you are incapable of making any arguments.
the theme of all those points (its unfair because its an advantage!) are plainly visible within their quotes and no preceding or subsequent arguments are necessary for the context to be know
everyone still reading at this point is completely aware of whats going on
I am not replying to either of your posts until you do what I asked you to, the point being so that we can actually move forward and we can all see in simple, concise form what we're all trying to argue. Preemptive dodge noted, points stand
If you wont do it then the discussion is over and will finish unresolved whatever you need to tell yourself
because I am not replying to any posts like goshad's (am I really the only person here who thinks that what he just posted is all just a load of illegible rubbish?). quit trying to belittle the argument as it stands, its very obvious and kinda sad
nice dodges
What's the point in all that, out of interest? Seems like a large waste of time to me.
Post by
250582
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monjaru
What's the point in all that, out of interest? Seems like a large waste of time to me.
It's answering Gotyouall's post with previously made statements to avoid having to actually retype the same information every time Gotyouall dodges a point (which has happened more times in this thread than I wish to count). It's usually a fairly effective way to get a point across until people start crying about how they can't understand the point because of formatting.
It's only a waste of time to those who didn't understand the point he was making in the first place.
Post by
camy009
Twisted logic is in fact twisted. Either choose to use the current armories as part of your argument or dont. It doesn't work both ways
I do my research. I actually go through arenajunkies multiple times each arena season seeing what people wear for their gearing. Nothing has changed on arenajunkies, or at least very little.
Because of the resilience on PvP gear which draws from its offensive stats to boost survivability. It's quite basic really, you should probably become familiar with these concepts before debating the topic.
You clearly don't understand my post. You say that in order to excel in WoW you have to do every part of the game. Yet for PvE you only need to do PvE, which is why question your logic by saying
So, why isn't PvP gear BiS for some pieces in PvE?
like it is visa-versa for PvP.
Your logic is again flawed. I questioned why you should be allowed to qq about raiders using gear in battlegrounds that could not otherwise be obtained, when those who chose not to arena complained of the same thing from arena gear.
There are a lot of reasons why BGs don't give top tier gear. First, everyone would have top PvP gear even if they don't even have any skills on their bar, or even if they botted and have never played. Secondly, BGs are considered to be the place to gear up for arena, much like how heroics are the place to gear up for raiding.
But answer me this, do you not have a certain gameplan prepared depending on a particular oponent in arena? If it goes wrong, do you switch something up to try and succeed? It's all the same beast, we do things so often they become routine. You practice and practice, and perfect a way to beat an encounter whether in PvP or PvE.
Same gameplan = 2k rating. If you are repeatedly running the same strat then you aren't going to progress very far. Yes, some players on the other team are more desirable to go for. Arena games are static like PvE though. Players on the other team don't pop CDs at the exact same time they did the last game. Instead you watch and see who has their trinket, their defensive CDs, where they are in the arena, how far away they are from others, etc.
Ya, a ret pally is easy to drop with a spell cleave. But if he is pillar humping and leaves his teammate alone, you're going to drop the badly positioned one.
Post by
250582
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MrSCH
What's the point in all that, out of interest? Seems like a large waste of time to me.
It's answering Gotyouall's post with previously made statements to avoid having to actually retype the same information every time Gotyouall dodges a point (which has happened more times in this thread than I wish to count). It's usually a fairly effective way to get a point across until people start crying about how they can't understand the point because of formatting.
It's only a waste of time to those who didn't understand the point he was making in the first place.
Ok thanks :)
Post by
551048
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monjaru
SM and legendaries are an exception.
Why should that be?
Post by
688014
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Post by
105944
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Post by
Synectics
@Monjaru, you did reply but the thing you're still 'dodging' is the fact that it doesnt matter how small the advantage is, it still shouldnt be allowed. I know its a small advantage. I know it isnt gamebreaking. But the fact is that technically it should not be allowed in arena.
Then neither should Epic gems. Everyone should be relegated to Rare gems.
Or perhaps no one should be able to have 450 professions. They can't have any professions at all.
How about they all go in with no gear at all? Just blank weapons that only allow them to use their abilities and nothing more?
It gets to the point where your request is just asinine. A large part of winning in an arena match is how you geared. Your itemization can be a very important part of an outcome. Saying that someone who spent weeks to get one single item that
may
offer a boost in performance shouldn't be allowed that is a bit ridiculous. What about all the people who put time into professions? Getting those perfect gems? Switching out those gems repeatedly for other ones?
It's all part of the game, and by now, any player who has had an arena rating at all should know what to expect when they step in. They are going to be going against people who have meticulously studied spreadsheets and strategies, pondered over their gear setup, and tried to etch out every bit that they can out of what they have.
And they're going to know that they might come against a Shadowmourne. And they'll know that whatever player is swinging it doesn't just have a few item levels over them on a piece of gear -- they're someone truly dedicated, very serious, and has probably come in with an even better gameplan than them. THAT is what should be feared -- not a couple points of item level.
Post by
551048
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monjaru
@Monjaru, you did reply but the thing you're still 'dodging' is the fact that it doesnt matter how small the advantage is, it still shouldnt be allowed. I know its a small advantage. I know it isnt gamebreaking. But the fact is that technically it should not be allowed in arena.
If that's all you're still holding on to, this discussion is over. Your argument has been broken down and diminished over and over again throughout the course of this thread. I've already explained to you more times than I'd like to count just why it is this advantage is not at all unfair; hell, I even humored you and gave it to you in the formatting of
your
choosing just to appease your overinflated ego.
You can disagree all you want, but the fact is: it's not unfair.
You gotta be a really big retard or have never played arena to say that Shadowmourne was OK. According to your logic: I should be able to
oneshot
people just because I've worked for a certain item.
resilience: get some
Post by
551048
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Post by
688014
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