This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Is it fair to use PvE gear in PvP?
Return to board index
Post by
335609
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monjaru
@Monjaru: Not replying to your post. Why? Because you didnt even attempt to refute the argument I put before you like I asked. Also next time you post please cut down on such things as 'you're stupid', 'if you dont understand, I pity you' bla bla - they make your posts annoying and more difficult to read.
Your ability to ignore the content of my posts is astounding, I must say. I didn't refute your argument? Really?
Your argument:
Shadowmourne is unfair to use in PvP. It is debatably stronger than any other weapon available and it's not available to everyone. Therefore it shouldn't be used in arena.
My refute:
Being unfair to the general populace in the game and being unfair in PvP are very different things. If the advantage SM suppositionally brings isn't even significant enough to alter the outcome of any given arena match, how can you honestly say it's unfair and shouldn't be allowed in PvP?
You are arguing an opinion that we are in agreement on and claiming that it automatically makes something entirely different true as well. Your argument simply isn't cohesive, and outnumbered or otherwise, you can't claim an opposing PoV to be false or unworth reading simply because it isn't formatted to your liking or because you don't feel like reading what we wrote.
If you can't handle debating with multiple people, you shouldn't bring your opinion to a public forum where, chances are, multiple people with differing opinions are going to oppose you.
Post by
sfagias
Tell you what. You can check how much the legendary's top damage is, and then check T2 weapons and see for yourself that the overall dmg shadowmourne gives is next to nothing. I am serious. Plus, with a T2 weapon you get buckloads of resilience which is VERY important in arenas. I just don't get your argument that "it is not fair because shadowmourne's swings have 200 more top damage". Do you know how insignificant that is?
Also, you cannot say that it is unfair until you have done math. Meaning, have you checked how much % of weapon damage are the strikes of warriors/deathknights/paladins compared to hunters/rogues? I haven't, but I am not the one saying the whole system is unfair. Check it out and come back to me with a real propper answer based on facts, and then tell me who needs to have stronger swings for burst. The classes that can wield SM, or the classes that can hit with speed, with strong shots and finishers?
Post by
camy009
Your example is flawed one. First he is wearing an ICC rep ring. This is technically PvE, however I'll accept it as being easy to get. slightly competitive PvE
everyone has the Rep ring, you can get it without downing a single boss (in fact many players have)
now if you tried inspecting his progress via achievements like you should have initially you would be aware that he hasn't been past putricide and has done no hard modes
Alright? Read my post again? I said he did PvE when it was much better for pallys... How does this relate? But useless info is still info, right?
Your example is a Hpally in S8 who need resilience due to spell cleaves being able to nuke them hard. combining random terms you've heard arenaers drop may seem like a prudent move to convince posters of your PvP knowledge, but there are multiple posters active in this thread that are capable of pointing out incongruencies in your support
being a holy pally doesn't make a character any more susceptible to spell cleave (or any burst team as spell cleave doesn't have any advantage over holy pallies that it does over any other class)
Paladins get nuked extremely hard by caster comps, they have no self protection from them and only 1 instant heal. Spell cleaves know this and drop them hard. I'm guessing you've never done arena before as a caster, eh?
Also, you can read through his achieves to find that he did raid during S6 when Hpallys wanted PvE gear... Also he is Furious glad(S6)... Why not look at other classes? or he just PvEd during season 6 because
he had the time or the desire to PvE
arguing that a healer in s8 was in more dire need of resil more than a pally in any earlier level 80 season is hilarious, especially when your only reasoning is "dude! spell cleave!" a comp much more prevalent in s6 than it was in s8
resil gets increasingly less important every subsequent season as the amounts increase on gear and the necessary amounts become easier to attain
Spell cleaves didn't dominate S6 more than S8. Where did you hear this from? Not to mention Hpals ran with TSG, beastcleave, PHD back in S6 when they were considered the most faceroll class in the game, stand and mash cleanse. They wore 4 piece T8 as well for the sacred shield bonus. This was actually very common.
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/player/Warrior/
I stopped at 40 chars, but 36 were wearing PvE, 3 were unable to be found, and one was wearing RP gear.most pvpers will have an item or two of PvE gear, especially when you pick one of the classes least likely to be focused regardless of comp (the ones that still stack dps stats under 1k resil)
but the funny thing is- you missed the point completely
the point was that the PvE gear that gotyouall is under the impression is required for PvP, is in fact, nothing of the sort
explain his
warriors
lack of PvE
he can even use shadowmoune! how did he manage at least 2.6k on all his teams without it!
I hoped you learned a valuable lesson today about talking the talk, especially when you don't really understand the talk
First, you just agreed with me that PvE gear is desired. Mainly because it has stats that are impossible or low from straight PvP gear. Once again your example is wrong... You just linked a Full PvE geared prot warrior in a double healer team... A class that is required to be PvE geared... I hoped you learned a valuable lesson today! =)
Normally I agree with you shadstep... But you are just off in this post...
Post by
sfagias
Just one point.
First, you just agreed with me that PvE gear is desired.
Noone is denying this. A PvE trink and/or more PvE parts are highly desired by classes that will not be focused, but that does not make the use of them unfair, which is the whole point of a thread that slowly gets derailed dodge after dodge after dodge.
Post by
camy009
Just one point.
First, you just agreed with me that PvE gear is desired.
Noone is denying this. A PvE trink and/or more PvE parts are highly desired by classes that will not be focused, but that does not make the use of them unfair, which is the whole point of a thread that slowly gets derailed dodge after dodge after dodge.
Sorry, I kind of undersold what I was trying to say. the ones that still stack dps stats under 1k resil
They stack gear so they can do competitive damage that is required to be high. So, yes it is unfair that PvE players get this advantage that can actually get them higher ratings, and I don't just mean just a 100.
Post by
Monjaru
They stack gear so they can do competitive damage that is required to be high. So, yes it is unfair that PvE players get this advantage that can actually get them higher ratings, and I don't just mean just a 100.
I am remarkably confused as to what you are trying to say here. Sounds to me like, "PvE gear is OP because it gives more damage potential than PvP gear."
Post by
sfagias
They stack gear so they can do competitive damage that is required to be high. So, yes it is unfair that PvE players get this advantage that can actually get them higher ratings, and I don't just mean just a 100.
ehmmm, the gear that can enhance your DPS in PvP is easily obtainable( except shadowmourne which is why the conversation has gone down that road now) by all players, especially on this expansion. So everyone can have access of this advantage. I don't get why it is unfair.
Post by
camy009
They stack gear so they can do competitive damage that is required to be high. So, yes it is unfair that PvE players get this advantage that can actually get them higher ratings, and I don't just mean just a 100.
I am remarkably confused as to what you are trying to say here. Sounds to me like, "PvE gear is OP because it gives more damage potential than PvP gear."
It gives more damage, faster casts, better heals, and better mana management depending on the class.
ehmmm, the gear that can enhance your DPS in PvP is easily obtainable( except shadowmourne which is why the conversation has gone down that road now) by all players, especially on this expansion. So everyone can have access of this advantage. I don't get why it is unfair.
Why must PvE be done for PvP? That's the issue. Yes, anyone can do PvE. But PvPers don't want to waste 3+ hours a week doing mindless PvE for gear that shouldn't be better for PvP in the first place. Let PvPers have their PvP and PvEers have their PvE.
Post by
Monjaru
It gives more damage, faster casts, better heals, and better mana management depending on the class.
At the cost of a big chunk of survivability. So what's your point?
Edit:
Why must PvE be done for PvP? That's the issue. Yes, anyone can do PvE. But PvPers don't want to waste 3+ hours a week doing mindless PvE for gear that shouldn't be better for PvP in the first place. Let PvPers have their PvP and PvEers have their PvE.
Actually, that's not at all what we've been talking about. And even if we were, PvPers are perfectly viable for achieving top 10, 5, and even 1% in arena ratings without any PvE gear whatsoever, so it's a null point. True, certain pieces of PvE gear are (debatably) slightly better than PvP equivalents, but the difference is so slight that it doesn't make any notable difference. Since hardcore PvPers don't actually
need
to acquire said pieces to compete for top spots, it's not at all a problem.
Post by
camy009
It gives more damage, faster casts, better heals, and better mana management depending on the class.
At the cost of a big chunk of survivability. So what's your point?
But the survivability loss is minimal in a competent player's hands. Ya a warrior takes more damage... But he deals a lot more, can still interrupt, spell reflect, shield block, shield wall, stun, and intervene. Most high end players can easily outlast other players with just basic tools of their class and LoS. Not to mention that you are able to put out a lot more pressure forcing them to play defensive.
Post by
sfagias
Why must PvE be done for PvP? That's the issue. Yes, anyone can do PvE. But PvPers don't want to waste 3+ hours a week doing mindless PvE for gear that shouldn't be better for PvP in the first place. Let PvPers have their PvP and PvEers have their PvE.
Because PvE is a part of the game (and probably the main part of the game). You will gimp your character if you only participate on just one aspect of the game, and I think that it is perfectly logical that Blizzard wants to urge players to do both.
Post by
camy009
It gives more damage, faster casts, better heals, and better mana management depending on the class.
At the cost of a big chunk of survivability. So what's your point?
But the survivability loss is minimal in a competent player's hands. Ya a warrior takes more damage... But he deals a lot more, can still interrupt, spell reflect, shield block, shield wall, stun, and intervene. Most high end players can easily outlast other players with just basic tools of their class and LoS. Not to mention that you are able to put out a lot more pressure forcing them to play defensive.
Actually, that's not at all what we've been talking about. And even if we were, PvPers are perfectly viable for achieving top 10, 5, and even 1% in arena ratings without any PvE gear whatsoever, so it's a null point. True, certain pieces of PvE gear are (debatably) slightly better than PvP equivalents, but the difference is so slight that it doesn't make any notable difference. Since hardcore PvPers don't actually need to acquire said pieces to compete for top spots, it's not at all a problem.
Sorry, that was meant to be the issue about his post, not the whole forum topic. That was my english error.
Post by
Monjaru
But the survivability loss is minimal in a competent player's hands. Ya a warrior takes more damage... But he deals a lot more, can still interrupt, spell reflect, shield block, shield wall, stun, and intervene. Most high end players can easily outlast other players with just basic tools of their class and LoS. Not to mention that you are able to put out a lot more pressure forcing them to play defensive.
That's only a legitimate argument if the competent player giving up his survivability is playing against bads, which obviously isn't going to be the case. It's like saying any "good" kiting class player will never be caught by a melee; the thing is, it's reversible. Any "good" melee will make sure that they're able to stay in melee range as often as possible. When the two clash, it all comes down to luck of the draw and who times their CDs (minor or otherwise) better.
Likewise, if the player sacrificing their survivability for extra damage is outplayed in the slightest, they quickly wish they had the added survivability of an extra PvP piece or two.
As I said in the edit, because hardcore PvPers are still perfectly viable for top rankings without PvE gear, it's hardly something you can call an issue.
Sorry, that was meant to be the issue about his post, not the whole forum topic. That was my english error.
Point still stands.
Post by
camy009
But the survivability loss is minimal in a competent player's hands. Ya a warrior takes more damage... But he deals a lot more, can still interrupt, spell reflect, shield block, shield wall, stun, and intervene. Most high end players can easily outlast other players with just basic tools of their class and LoS. Not to mention that you are able to put out a lot more pressure forcing them to play defensive.
That's only a legitimate argument if the competent player giving up his survivability is playing against bads, which obviously isn't going to be the case. It's like saying any "good" kiting class player will never be caught by a melee; the thing is, it's reversible. Any "good" melee will make sure that they're able to stay in melee range as often as possible. When the two clash, it all comes down to luck of the draw and who times their CDs (minor or otherwise) better.
Likewise, if the player sacrificing their survivability for extra damage is outplayed in the slightest, they quickly wish they had the added survivability of an extra PvP piece or two.
As I said in the edit, because hardcore PvPers are still perfectly viable for top rankings without PvE gear, it's hardly something you can call an issue.
In higher end PvP where both parties are good, people don't drop like 1500 rating players. The entire match everyone remains above 60%. Pressure is the main key. You need a set up in order to drop someone. Full PvP gear would only be good if there was no CC. If your healer is CCed, you can have 1400 resilience... But if you don't LoS or use defensive CDs, you will die. Resilience only needs to be high enough for you to play defensive, not be your survivability.
Let's also consider how much resilience you're losing. Elemental shamans using haste will still have 1k-1100 resilience while still getting 20% haste, same SP, and nearly the same crit. This is a loss of 100 resilience (300 only being if you got every piece with resilience, which would kill your damage way too much) and gaining 20% haste. Not to mention this would include
Dislodged foreign objest
or
Charred twilight scale
which gives a massive damage boost with proc.
Post by
Monjaru
And in many scenarios, that extra bit of survivability in the form of resilience is what keeps you from going down while your healer is CC'd.
Regardless, none of this does anything to further the claim that PvE gear is "OP" or "unfair" in PvP.
Post by
camy009
And in many scenarios, that extra bit of survivability in the form of resilience is what keeps you from going down while your healer is CC'd.
Same could be said about lack of damage. And same could be said about not using a single stam gem, or using that spec that gives 3% more stam. Silences, CC, defensive CDs, disarms, roots, snare, and LoS give 100% damage reduction (well disarm and some defensive CDs aren't 100%) . Those are what save you in a CC chain.
Regardless, none of this does anything to further the claim that PvE gear is "OP" or "unfair" in PvP.
20% haste isn't OP? 50+% ArP isn't OP? 128 MP5 trinkets aren't OP? 30 second trinket buffs aren't OP? Set bonuses that offer 20% increased shield slam+shockwave damage, or 20% LvB damage, or 2 second reduction on sacred shield effect, or increased SP from using mana gem isn't OP? Weapons with higher Damage output isn't unfair? Proc chances for an extra attack isn't unfair?
For just an incredibly minor cost of survivability...
Post by
sfagias
20% haste isn't OP? 50+% ArP isn't OP? 128 MP5 trinkets aren't OP? 30 second trinket buffs aren't OP? Set bonuses that offer 20% increased shield slam+shockwave damage, or 20% LvB damage, or 2 second reduction on sacred shield effect, or increased SP from using mana gem isn't OP? Weapons with higher Damage output isn't unfair? Proc chances for an extra attack isn't unfair?
For just an incredibly minor cost of survivability..
Yes, but once you equip all these things you get critted for insane amounts of damage. The damage output does not make up for all these things in a high rated arena match.
Also, and this is one point I have made that noone has really answered, PvE gear is part of the freaking game. Blizzard wants people to play both aspects of the game. If you do not want to participate in one of these aspects you get gimped, and that is your own problem. Saying it is not fair that he has deathbringers, for example, and I don't because I do not do PvE is just not right... Because you CAN do PvE, it's right there... It is your choice not to PvE, so you don't get shiny trinket.
Post by
250582
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
320076
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post Reply
This topic is locked. You cannot post a reply.