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Why so much hate towards the Dark Lady?
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Post by
575377
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Post by
470415
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Post by
Monday
Who were her underlings.
Fail management at it's best.
Post by
Skreeran
I like Sylvanas, and I feel bad for her.
Although I admit that it's looking more and more like we're going to have to kill her.
Post by
Monday
I liked her a lot during W3, but in WoW I just hate her. Way too much bad character development.
Post by
355559
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575377
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367590
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Post by
Skreeran
She definitely knew about the Blight. We've known that since Vanilla.
However, it is seriously unlikely that she was in league with Varimathras and Putress.
I don't remember the exact argument for why she wasn't involved, but I remember it was pretty compelling. You could say I have a substantial evilogue.
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575377
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Post by
FarseerLolotea
She used to be, if not entirely a sympathetic character, at least a tragic antihero. Now, she's running the villain ball for a touchdown.
Post by
ArgentSun
I don't know, it's hard put oneself in Sylvanas'
sexy boots
shoes. I am not even sure if it's possible for any of us to do so accurately, since she is in a very unique situation. You can picture yourself as Thrall or Magni, because even though their situations are also fictional, they at least share common traits with us - they live. Sylvanas is not only kind of dead, but is also the leader of a nation populated by walking dead - hardly something we can relate to. Still though, here goes nothing...
Let's look at the Dark Lady's interesting life and afterlife since the moment she became known to us.
As a high elf, Sylvanas Windrunner was everything a
quel'dorei
ranger could aspire to be. Beautiful, skilled, in a position of leadership, responsible, loyal - you name it. She fought Arthas' Scourge with passion few other individuals in Azeroth could reach... and she lost. She lost not only her life and war, but her will. All the hatred against the Scourge, all the disdain against Arthas, all the effort put in the war to defend her people, and at the end she was turned into one of the future Lich King's banshees. And as if that was not enough, Arthas left her just enough of her own mind for her to understand all the atrocities she was committing. Note this for future reference.
As a banshee, Sylvanas could do little more than nourish her hate for Arthas... and herself. One could argue that she hated herself much more than she hated Arthas. She grew single-minded, sharply focused on finding a way to free herself and extract revenge upon the fallen prince of Lordaeron. Finally, when an opportunity arose, she snatched swiftly, but didn't allow her zeal to ruin her careful planning. Sylvanas was able to execute a perfect coup, luring Arthas to a remote place, granting him a false sense of security, and then almost killing him. The only reason the former prince lived was because of the timely - and very lucky - intervention of Kel'Thuzad. Forced to flee the scene, yet another burden fell on the banshee's ethereal shoulders - not only was forced to assist Arthas in his unholy crusade against her own nation, but now she missed a golden chance to kill him. If only she had used an instantly-working poison, instead of one that would slowly drain the death knight's strength...
You can see where I am going with this, I hope. A huge part of Sylvanas' early development was clouded by blame and self-loathing. Failure was her companion during the entirety of this journey - she failed her people, she failed herself by not being strong enough to escape on her own, and she failed her oath to slay Arthas. But let's leave the blame aside for now - although it's certainly still there - and focus on responsibility and purpose.
Having missed her chance to defeat Arthas, Sylvanas had to push her revenge to the back of the scene for a little while, because of more pressing issues. An alarmingly large number of Scourge minions were breaking free from the Lich King's control, and many of them were in a position not much different from the one Sylvanas was in; they were broken people, full of self-hatred, and empty of purpose. Uniting them against a common enemy - Arthas - would not only serve Sylvanas in her long term plans, but also give her a power other factions in the world would have to be mindful of. Notice that it is highly unlikely that Dark Lady came to be out of compassion for these lost souls. Gone was the ranger general of Quel'Thalas. The eldest one of the Windrunner sisters had turned into a cold and calculating creature, imprisoned by her own hatred, and driven forth by a single dark purpose. As is common in mortal societies, the character of the leader had a significant influence over the character of the society led by this leader. And so the Forsaken were born - peoples either mourning, hating, or despising their former lives; peoples whose only reason to continue their eternal torment was revenge and lust for power; peoples who had no place in this world.
Having been forced to make deals with the treacherous Nathrezim, Sylvanas must have known that she would need all the help she could get in order to keep her aptly named nation together. With the only nation in Azeroth that may have been willing to assist her - Qual'Thalas - tainted, burned, and in ruins, Sylvanas knew that the only people should could at least partially rely on were the ones she led. The Nathrezim would stay with her only as long as they found personal gain in this partnership. The races of the Alliance would reject her without even considering teamwork - after all, the teachings of the Light were very explicit about how any form of undeath should be handled. And although Thrall's Horde was made of mostly outcasts as well, there was little hope for them to join forces with what must have looked like a nation of not-too-reliable creatures who had served the Lich King until not very long ago. Sylvanas' only chance to survive long enough to see her dreaded enemy on his knees was to gain the loyalty of the Forsaken - not only as their temporary general whose goal was mere existence; no, she needed to become something more - an image in and of herself, a figure the newly freed undead could look up to. And this is where I believe she escaped one dangerous trap only to enter another one.
If Sylvanas were to distance herself from the Forsaken, leading them only as a military figure, she would have never gone over her burning desire for revenge. Her only purpose in afterlife would have been the pursuit of Arthas. Sounds familiar? Aye, Maiev Shadowsong fell into that pit. She dedicated everything she had to her very personal fight with Illidan, and when the wayward Stormrage was finally brought to justice, she found herself empty. Life lost meaning, and for all we know, Maiev still wanders the world, lost in memories and thought. Now, imagine what would have happened to Sylvanas if she had found herself in the same situation - only lacking Maiev original state of eagerness and vigor. Being stripped of one's only purpose in life was devastating to Illidan's jailor. Doing the same thing to a creature who had already lost her only purpose in life and had been left with only her revenge in undeath... It's probably not a long shot to claim that Sylvanas would have simply ceased to exist.
Now, the other side of the trap. Starting to grow relatively fond of the Forsaken would allow Sylvanas to continue "living" after Arthas' eventual demise. It may have distracted her from her original plans, but in the long term it helped her thrive, it gave her a purpose as close to noble as her darkness-infused past would allow. All good so far? The only problem was obsession. How do you take care of a nation whose needs are all but unknown to the world? They cannot procreate, they can hardly be stimulated or encouraged, and they certainly are not ones to enjoy the small things in life. I believe Sylvanas was not yet aware of the problems the mantle of leadership would serve her later on, but if preserving the Forsaken for a few years had its toll on her, then endeavouring to help them establish themselves permanently would be nigh impossible.
Let's fast forward a little here. The next few years allowed Sylvanas to learn much about leadership and gave her a chance to work on her ultimate project - the Lich King's defeat. Events leading up to the attack on the Icecrown Citadel could be seen as the calm before a storm. Experiments with Plague/Blight, nourishing loyalties, training armies, fighting enemies - both hidden and obvious - all of these things gave Sylvanas and her people something to do while the anticipation was building and the day of reckoning was approaching. Accepted in the Horde, but not fully trusted by the majority of its members, as well as the return of the
quel'dorei
now known as
sin'dorei
didn't help mend the Forsaken's integrity problems. It didn't help when Varimathras - an old ally - and Putress, one of their own, decided to not only betray them, but scrape the thin layer of trust the rest of the Horde had for them even thinner. They were outcasts among the outcasts. So when the Lich King finally fell, the Forsaken once again found themselves without a purpose. Sylvanas had done an impressive job of gaining their loyalty and forging a nation out of them, but this nation was a little more than an extension of Sylvanas' own will. The Forsaken didn't follow the Banshee Queen because they aspired to be like her; the followed because she gave them her reason to continue existence, and hatred was one of the few things they could still feel. The walking dead found little reason to celebrate the fall of the Lich King, because this was the final destination of their path.
Clever as always, Sylvanas found a way to keep her tormented people from losing all will to continue existing. She gave them something all of them had thought long lost - the chance to see new members of their race join their ranks. Unable to produce offspring, the Forsaken were well aware of the grim fact that one day they would all die, permanently this time. This brings us back to the same old problem - peoples with no reason to "live." But with the opportunity to actually do something and know that not all effort would be lost, the Forsaken were once again given a purpose. Sylvanas had brought them one small step closer to the long-lost experience of being alive. They could dream again, they could start grand projects, and maybe even develop a culture, all of this simply because of the knowledge that the footprint of their race would remain in the world for more than the few decades it would take for the original Forsaken to crumble to dust.
So is it wrong for Sylvanas to employ all the tools at her disposal when the fate of all of her sovereigns is at stake? How can we blame her for accepting the Val'kyr in the ranks of the Forsaken, when we know that they are the only reliable way for the free-minded undead to be able to experience something close to hope in the future? Can we really judge the Dark Lady for her desire to develop a substance that helps her allies, harms the enemies of the Horde, and
hopefully
increases the ranks of the Forsaken? Hardly, I believe. She is not turning into a Lich Queen. She does not hunger to dominate the world and cease all life. In fact, one could see her as the mistress of afterlife itself. Assuming her experiments yield success, she could hold the gift of immortality, for who would not want to correct the mistakes of their life as a mortal? Being raised as a Forsaken could grant endless opportunities, and as has been shown before, this is not an eternal contract - undeads are able to simply will themselves back to the grave.
Can you really hate the Banshee Queen now, when you know that she was able to overcome not only self-loathing and sense of failure greater than that of anyone else, but turn into a protective figure for peoples with nothing to "live" for? Can you really hate her for holding off the hordes of undead free from the Lich King from falling prey to their hatred and turning against their former living friends, because it is easier to destroy a painful reminder of the past than to be eternally reminded of the things you can't have? Can you?
P.S. Damn, but it felt good to right a decent post after all this time!(##RESPBREAK##)140##DELIM##ArgentSun##DELIM##
TL;DR
: Sylvanas did more than anyone could expect from her, considering her not-so-pleasant past. She still works to her people's best interests.
Post by
Adamsm
Can you really hate the Banshee Queen now, when you know that she was able to overcome not only self-loathing and sense of failure greater than that of anyone else, but turn into a protective figure for peoples with nothing to "live" for? Can you really hate her for holding off the hordes of undead free from the Lich King from falling prey to their hatred and turning against their former living friends, because it is easier to destroy a painful reminder of the past than to be eternally reminded of the things you can't have? Can you?Honestly; yes. But I've put my hatred of Sylvanas in other threads so not reposting it here again.
Post by
Atik
I've never had any hate towads Syl. Considering her "awkward" position, she is sort of painted into a corner if you will.
Her people can not reproduce, and are slowly degenerating into mindless ones. Considering how the undead would be with no leader, I think she has done well as their leader.
Think about it without Syl for a moment. All the undead would do is take revenge; undirected revenge on a global level. Think of the Wrathgate, but instead the blight is being dropped on Stormwind or Org.
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182470
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367590
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Post by
Skreeran
Excellent, excellent, Argent. That post mirrors many of the things I have thought of her as well.
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367590
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306612
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