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Why so much hate towards the Dark Lady?
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Post by
Monday
Who were her underlings.
Fail management at it's best.
Try controlling free willed beings that only acts based on own interests. It's not like one person can control everything happening.
Fail arguement, I suggest you come up with something better next time.
I'm late, but I have to respond.
It's fairly easy to do it, considering that there haven't been any major nuclear catastrophes in the world today. You have a leader to control the others, and if the leader fails to control, then it is fail management.
Post by
Braevia
Who were her underlings.
Fail management at it's best.
Try controlling free willed beings that only acts based on own interests. It's not like one person can control everything happening.
Fail arguement, I suggest you come up with something better next time.
I'm late, but I have to respond.
It's fairly easy to do it, considering that there haven't been any major nuclear catastrophes in the world today. You have a leader to control the others, and if the leader fails to control, then it is fail management.
That's not really true. You can't watch everyone all the time, and you can't discover every crime committed, especially if there aren't any surviving witnesses.
Did Sylvanas want the Blight to be made? Sure. Would she use it on living beings? Absolutely. Did she know every terrible thing done in the process of making it? Doubtful, if only because she has better things to do than watch mad scientists work.
Post by
Monday
if only because she has better things to do than watch mad scientists work.
Ah, no. The Plague was pretty much her whole reason for existence, as it was her way to destroy the Scourge and living.
Did she know every terrible thing done in the process of making it?
Also, she is there when it is tested on some Forsaken, killing them. In RotLK iirc.
You can't watch everyone all the time, and you can't discover every crime committed, especially if there aren't any surviving witnesses.
That's why the Deathstalkers are in existence iirc.
Post by
Adamsm
Did she know every terrible thing done in the process of making it? Doubtful, if only because she has better things to do than watch mad scientists work.That, and as long as it worked, she wouldn't care; when she observes one of her own being used to test it, she considers for a moment that the forsaken in question might be a criminal....then dismisses the thought, deciding it doesn't matter as long as the Blight works as it should; it does, and she's happy about it.
Post by
Braevia
if only because she has better things to do than watch mad scientists work.
Ah, no. The Plague was pretty much her whole reason for existence, as it was her way to destroy the Scourge and living.
Really? Then where did all of those dark rangers come from? You're telling me she didn't have ANYTHING else to do? She spent all of vanilla and BC standing in a big circular room with Varimathras.
Also, I don't expect Deathguards to catch everyone...plus, it's pretty clear that they didn't have any authority over the Apothecaries pre-Wrathgate, and may still be fairly powerless in that regard.
Post by
Skreeran
Also, she is there when it is tested on some Forsaken, killing them. In RotLK iirc.The excuse was that they were
supposedly
criminals. Sylvanas didn't seem particularly interested in finding out whether they actually were or not, but she didn't just drop the Blight on a village, Saddam Hussain-style, to see if it worked or not.
Besides, while human experimentation is obviously unethical, you can't condemn a nation or a leader solely because they've done it.
Just look at how many cases of government-sanctioned human experimentation the United States has
.
That's why the Deathstalkers are in existence iirc.Who did the Deathstalkers report to?
That, and as long as it worked, she wouldn't care; when she observes one of her own being used to test it, she considers for a moment that the forsaken in question might be a criminal....then dismisses the thought, deciding it doesn't matter as long as the Blight works as it should; it does, and she's happy about it.Eh, chalk it up to serving the cause. During World Wars 1, 2, and the Cold War, secret government human experimentation was widespread, not because the government was crazy-evil, but because winning the war was all the mattered to them.
Defeating the Lich King was all that mattered to Sylvanas and the Forsaken, so if some people had to die for the cause, so be it. But they're no worse than most other governments in history.
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229054
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611800
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Post by
Braevia
Elective monarchy? I think you mean a Constitutional Monarchy, where the monarch's role is merely ceremonial, and leadership is elected. Even in that case, the monarchs inherit their role from their parents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_monarchy
Also, I don't expect Deathguards to catch everyone...plus, it's pretty clear that they didn't have any authority over the Apothecaries pre-Wrathgate, and may still be fairly powerless in that regard.
Deathguard = bulk of the Forsaken Army.
Did she know every terrible thing done in the process of making it? Doubtful, if only because she has better things to do than watch mad scientists work.
A)The Royal Apothecary Society was founded by Sylvanas.
B)Its based
next to the Royal Quarter
.
C)Rise of the Lich King depicts Sylvanas present in the RAS, and witness many 'bad things' - such as the treatment given to the human prisoners there.
D)Such atrocities (or, even better, 'atrocities' from their pov) are common procedure amongst the Forsaken. And seem to be common knowledge of the entire Horde - since the Kor'kron garrison in the Undercity doesn't seem surprised with the example named above.
Also, you can't handwave Rise of the Lich King. The authors work next to Metzen and Ethel.
From your own article:
It is not uncommon however for elective monarchies to transform into hereditary ones after some centuries.
To say nothing of the fact that they still rule for life...if your argument is that elective monarchy is somehow more benevolent than dictatorship or traditional monarchy, I'm still not seeing any evidence of that.
If the prescence of torture in a society makes that society evil, then we're all villains. America, Europe, Asia, the Middle East, everywhere. If we don't torture people here, we ship them off to a country where it is legal, with full knowledge of what will happen to them.
And lastly, I don't see the significance in mentioning the size of the Deathguards. They had no power over the Apothecaries, period. They couldn't do anything for the same reason that local police officers can't prevent the CIA from waterboarding someone.
Post by
Braevia
From the questing I've done so far - from Tirisfal straight through the Battle of Andorhal - the impression that I get is that Sylvanas just wants to solidify the Forsaken's stake in Lordaeron, which the Alliance is bent on reacquiring for humans. I haven't seen her demonstrate any desire to expand her borders beyond the geographical limits of Lordaeron/northern EK, and she hasn't said that she wants to use the val'kyr to raise an army to destroy all the living.
They're in a bad place. No one else wants them to exist. If they were to cede their territory, no one else would have them, so they have to take action to preserve their "lives", and they use what means are available to them. They are ruthless and pragmatic, to be sure though - and also FREAKIN' HILARIOUS.
To play Devil's Advocate for a moment, the restoration of one's former lands is an excuse used by both Germany in WWII (they wanted the "Rhineland" back) and Saddam Hussein during the first Gulf War. It's not really a workable excuse in a modern context, but in a medieval setting, such as Azeroth...it's as good a reason as any.
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Post by
Adamsm
I was under the impression that we don't know what happened to him after he was taken to the Undercity through the portal. Saying he will tortured and experimented on without knowing for a fact that that is the case is taking a bit too far, regardless of how evil the Forsaken and Sylvanas may seem.
The fact that he gets pulled through a portal by a spiked chain?
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457614
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Post by
Patty
The fact that he gets pulled through a portal by a spiked chain?
...does not in any way mean he will be experimented on. The two don't match.
I agree. We can't assume what will happen to Koltira, just because the Forsaken are hardly moral, or because of a hatred of Sylvanas (for some). It's also correct that if Koltira had cost the undead Andorhal, it would have been a crushing blow, and leave the Forsaken in a highly vulnerable position.
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