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Cata bringing back Hard Core players?
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Post by
Deepthought
If you're happy with how you finally beat the game, you're saying you'd be happy to beat a game on Easy mode and never bother attempting Medium or Hard and throw the game away. Whilst that's fine if it was just YOU who played the game on the console, the problem with WoW is that Easy mode is thrust upon everyone in the game whether they like it or not.It's not about achievements, it's not about loot. It's about people getting away with playing stupid because now, they can. I hate that.Heroic content is there if you wish to attempt it.
Post by
44284
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Post by
78077
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Post by
78077
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Post by
Deepthought
Actually, to be very specific, Sindragosa and Lich King are the only two properly Heroic encounters left that require a large amount of player skill rather than just a high Gearscore to overcome. That is your "hard mode". Your measuring stick that seperates your "smart" and "stupid".
Enjoy.
Also I find it disheartening that you do not differentiate between "casual" and "bad".
BTW:but I really don't think it can be argued that the end-game design in Wrath has been woefully lacking and lessons need to be learned by Blizzard for Cataclysm."I don't think it can be argued" means you disagree with the proceeding statement. "To argue" a point is to support it.
Post by
78077
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Post by
Deepthought
But put very, very simply - ICC today isn't the ICC that it was once before, yet the achievements for doing it remain the same - how is that right?The same is true of any achivement that can be outleveled - see: SWP, BT, BfMT.
In my eyes, I didn't down the Lich King - I downed his less able identical twin brother.You are perfectly able to turn the 30% buff off, if you want to.
So in many ways, skilled casual players should be annoyed because their achievements have been lessened by the way "bads" can down LK now too!
The fact that content has been made easier does not change the fact that the Achivements carry date tags. If person A's Kingslayer achivement is dated 4 months after person B's, then we can probably assume that A had an easier time of it.
Post by
Agoraphobic
Also I find it disheartening that you do not differentiate between "casual" and "bad".
It seems as though the casuals can't differentiate either, judging from the way they assume I was attacking them.
Post by
Pwntiff
With the exception of world/realm firsts, WoW raiding is not zero-sum. Yes, group A cleared the content months ahead of you, that doesn't stop you from doing it. That's why raids are instanced and repopulate every week. That's why the corporation analogy doesn't fit. You can only have a small number of top executives, but in WoW you can have a very large number of people participating in top-tier content. You should be more concerned with "this feels too easy for me" than "these baddies did it too, so it must be easy."
Take pride in
your
accomplishments. They can only be diminished by others if you let them.
Post by
xaratherus
The bold part shows you didn't read what I said - I only achieved the Kingslayer title two weeks ago, only two weeks after coming back to the game. So I'm actually one of those people who have killed the Lich King "on the cheap" and, as such, it feels like a very shallow victory to me - as it should to any reasonably skilled player on WoW.
Actually, I did read it. It still doesn't have a bearing on what I said.
I don't have Kingslayer. Our guild started getting to LK consistently about 2 months ago, and due to other obligations (primarily acting as best man for my roommates' wedding), I dropped out of raiding regularly.
If/when I do earn it, I will be happy with the accomplishment, because I don't consider myself
to be competing with anyone else
. If I had fun doing it, and got to see it, then that's all that matters to me. The gear is a means to an end - that end being entertainment.
They could literally open up ICC and let you walk in, push a button, defeat the Lich King, and get a full set of i277 gear with legendary versions of Frostmourne, and I simply would not care. I wouldn't bother doing it, because to me that would not be fun - but the fact that Blizzard allowed it in no way detracts from the entertainment and fun that I received from accomplishing it when I accomplished it.
And the corporate analogy wasn't about salary. Let's say the high-flier retains the same wage, but the mail room guy now matches that wage. What I'm basically saying is that the initial achievements of the high-flier are considerably lessened because anyone from the bottom rung can earn what he does or do what he does.
And what I'm saying is that as long as he is happy in his work, and is satisfied in his life, then his achievements are not lessened in any way, shape, or form. The benefit that he felt at those achievements is not reduced, save when he reduces it himself by comparing himself to the others, which he does solely at his own discretion.
You say I can't show how the achievements are weakened in a "more tangible fashion"... well, I can only refer you to a dictionary to show you they HAVE been weakened.
achievement
n
1. something that has been accomplished, esp by hard work, ability, or heroism.
That does not show me that the achievement itself was weakened. The achievement - the act, as it happened at the time that they completed it - has not changed one iota; the people who undertook that achievement are
choosing
to compare themselves against others. No one is forcing them to do that.
If anything, I'd be willing to bet that the people who first downed the Lich King are
more
proud of their achievement now than before, because they did it the hard way.
Let me break it down for you. I don't like idiots. The fact that they're the ones complaining the content is too hard and ruining it for so-called casual players (because they use that excuse as a reason to get it dumbed down) thus "casual players" getting blamed for the lack of difficulty in the game.
I don't like idiots either. I also don't think that over 90% of the game's population are idiots - yet in BC, less than 10% saw the final end game content. While I agree on many levels that WotLK shifted too far in the other direction, I also agree with the developers: It's ridiculous to put in that much hard work for such a small fraction of the audience.
Post by
78077
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Post by
Pwntiff
Except the Raven Lord has always been farmable (once a day). You just used to need be/bribe a Druid.
Post by
304214
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Post by
304214
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Post by
582040
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Post by
xaratherus
I don't think we're going to see eye to eye here put bluntly. I'm of the opinion a game should be beaten via the work that was meant to go into it, not handed on a plate after a few months simply because the subscription base has underachieved and/or not put in the gametime/practice to do it. Whereas your point of view is that if a portion of the game has been created by Blizzard, then everyone has a right to play that part of the game.
That's not what I said, nor even implied. I said that having content that only 3% of the player base saw at-level (the specific example here is Sunwell) was a waste of resources on the part of the developer. I also stated that I felt that WotLK shifted too far in the opposite direction.
See, that's why I don't think we'll see eye to eye! This isn't a console game where you play yourself; it's a "massively multiplayer" game where you develop a real time character to compare directly with others, and vamp up your skills to earn a shot at the little experienced, elite content - at least, that's what a hardcore does.
On this, I agree that we won't see eye-to-eye; your assumption of "what a hardcore does" is different from mine. In my book, a hardcore raider would be interested in beating the other guy to the punch, and would care little for whether someone comes along and does the same thing after they've done it; they did it first, or they did it best, or they did it with a harder degree of difficulty, and no one can take that away from them - except themselves, and they have no one to blame but themselves if that happens.
Let's put it this way - I know literally hundreds of players on my server where Cataclysm is the last chance saloon. If the end-game deteriorates into "casual catering" again, people will be leaving in drones for what is, to me, very obvious reasons.
*shrugs* And I know hundreds of players on my server who won't go anywhere even if that happens.
Precedent seems to serve counter to your belief: Despite the fact that there have been numerous complaints with each new expansion about how 'easy' the game has gotten, the subscription base has not decreased significantly, and arguably has increased .
And the 'hard core' players? The ones that I know (and granted this is a small sample of the overall group, so I offer it only as anecdote) either are still here, or come back with each new raid to complete it, then move on to some other game until the next raid drops.
I think we've really hashed out all we can on this one. Thank you for the spirited and polite debate, Tubey!
Post by
78077
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Post by
282913
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Post by
xaratherus
The hardcore people quit because they get frustrated at watching everything they worked so hard for being given to Joe Shmoe that doesn't even know his class because it's too hard for his tiny brain to figure out how to play, at least in my experience.
Yet, Joe and his ilk have just as much right to play the game as you 'hardcore' people do.
By any chance do we have an equal right to not want to play with Joe?
A half assed player has the "right" to be carried by serious players. But serious players have no choices but to carry the half assed masses on their backs.
Grouping with a 'raid leech' disables your ability to quit the raid and find another one, or for the raid leader to kick the leech from the raid, if he/she agrees that the person is slacking?
Post by
44284
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