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Atheism / Agnosticism
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Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
DarkOpeth
While I certainly do not consider Wikipedia a flawless, authoritative source, the articles on
Atheism
and
Agnosticism
give a pretty solid overview of just how complex these two ideas/philosophies are. I recommend you go read them for some basic info.
This is all GENERALIZED. There are many nuances, niches and sub-contexts worth examining for a complete perspective.
Personally, I am an Atheist. Some of my friends and acquaintances are non-believers and skeptics and we've had this type of discussion before.
Most broadly, Atheism can be either strong or weak. ("a" means without something, and "theism" means deity/belief or religion)
so Atheism = without belief. From what I've read about it, there are two "kinds" of Atheism:
Strong Atheism: There is/are NO deity(s). God(s) do/does NOT exist.
Weak Atheism: I PERSONALLY do not believe in a god or gods. (weak atheism does not imply anything else other than personally rejecting belief in a deity(s).)
I am not an agnostic, but when I hear it mentioned, what I most think of, and probably most people think of:
Weak Agnosticism: I am not sure whether a god(s) exist or not. I do not believe in a god(s) because I am not certain of whether they exist or not.
Strong Agnosticism: we (as in all humanity and more broadly all sentient beings capable of thought) CANNOT be sure whehter God(s) exist. This can be either for two reasons, we have no way of finding out, or we cannot definiteively prove such a thing. So in comparison to weak agnosticism, this (strong) kind takes a general view.
Deism is opposite to Atheism, in the fact that it claims that there is indeed a a Supreme Creator (I.E. Deity). It is the standpoint that reason and observation of the natural world, without the need for organized religion, can determine that a supreme being created the universe. Further the term often implies that this supreme being does not intervene in human affairs or suspend the natural laws of the universe. Deists typically reject supernatural events such as prophecy and miracles, tending to assert that God (or "The Supreme Architect") has a plan for the universe that is not to be altered by intervention in the affairs of human life. Most deists see holy books not as authoritative divine revelations but as human interpretations.
Post by
HiVolt
Atheist checking in.
For those who are unsure of the exact definition-
From
Wikipedia
:
Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.
Post by
204878
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Post by
Squishalot
@ DoctorLore:
I came to the conclusion that I had neither art nor part with
any of these denominations
, except the last
The way I have traditionally understood agnosticism is that it does not follow the beliefs of other denominations / labels (ironically, seeing as it itself is a label).
In relation to Huxley's choice of word, consider the etymology - it's based on '
Gnosis
'. Although I also dislike Wikipedia, here is what it says about it (since I don't have my encyclopedia of religion at work):
Gnosis (from one of the Greek words for knowledge, γνῶσις) is the spiritual knowledge of a saint or mystically enlightened human being. Within the cultures of the term's provenance (Byzantine and Hellenic) Gnosis was a knowledge or insight into the infinite, divine and uncreated in all and above all, rather than knowledge strictly into the finite, natural or material world.
So with respect to
knowledge
and what Agnostics claim not to know, it's not the question of '
Are there
gods?', but the question of '
What is
the infinite, divine?' The implication of the difference is that you're not questioning the existence of it, but rather, the quantum or characteristics of it.
From these arguments, the single term Agnosticism appears to include both a) questioning the existence of a supernatural being; and b) accepting that a supernatural being may exist, but questioning what precisely it is/represents. The etymology suggests (B) but is ambiguous about whether (A) is also included. Huxley appears to be aligned with (A) in belief, but his statements are also ambiguous about whether they could also represent (B).
In my opinion, he simply mislabeled his beliefs. The term 'Agnostic' should be reserved for an etymologically correct definition, and his beliefs should be treated as 'weak Atheism' or other such term that questions the existence of the divine in the first place, rather than the characteristics of an accepted divine.
Post by
148723
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Post by
Skreeran
Atheist checking in.Oh, I didn't know that HiVolt. Cool. :)
Also an Agnostic Explicit Atheist. I don't believe in gods, so I am Atheist. I know and understand that I don't believe in them, and for what reasons. And, despite my not believing in them, I don't claim to be able to prove that they don't exist (proving that
anything
doesn't exist is impossible), so I'm technically Agnostic.
However, while many people who identify themselves as "Agnostics," I don't give much credence to the idea that gods exist. I am also technically agnostic about elves, leprechauns, and Superman. I don't believe they exist, but I can't prove that they don't.
Because most people who identify themselves as "Agnostic" give roughly equal likelihood to the existence or nonexistence of deities, I prefer to call myself "Atheist." Again, I am not a Strong Atheist in the sense that "I believe that gods
do not
exist," but rather, I simply do not believe in gods. Rather than a positive belief, I hold negative beliefs.
Incidentally, I don't really like the term "Brights" that some people tried to spread. I know that it wasn't actually meant to mean that atheists were "brighter" than theists, but that's what it came off as nonetheless. And if people think that we think we're smarter than everyone else, we'll be even worse off.
Post by
124027
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Post by
Skreeran
Sounds like Agnostic Atheism to me. You don't believe, but you accept the possibility. Whether it's explicit or implicit depends on whether or not you've deliberately chosen to reject the idea of gods or not.
Post by
324987
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Post by
124027
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Post by
138638
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Post by
HoleofArt
Have I let the people of this thread know that I love you all?
These types of threads are my favorite to read; although I prefer not to take part.
Since I'm here, I suppose I could at least leave behind my belief: going by the defined definitions, I would call myself Explicit Agnostic Athiesm. On a personal level, I try to not define my belief. I'm perfectly content with what I know and don't know, and should I feel the need, am more than happy learning more. I just don't like giving myself a set belief, as for all I know, that's subject to change based on one of life's many strange occurrences.
/shrug?
Post by
Squishalot
By Doctorlores definition I am an: Explicit Athiest
DoctorLore hasn't defined atheism :P
People are busy butchering definitions in this thread. It's all well and good to define your beliefs/understandings, but the labels are meaningless if you're misusing them. For example:
Also an Agnostic Explicit Atheist.
...
I prefer to call myself "Atheist."
Hyperspacerebel is a Jewish Christian, going by the example that you and DoctorLore are providing. Agnosticism and Atheism are and should be mutually exclusive.
Skree, in regards to what you've said, it is impossible to be Gnostic about elves and Superman. They are finite and (theoretically) material and therefore do not fall under Gnostic beliefs. Therefore, you cannot be Agnostic about elves and Superman. You can doubt their existence, the same way you can doubt the existence of life on other planets, or NASA's moon landing, but you cannot be 'Agnostic' on these topics.
"Living one's life as if there were no gods" is not sufficient to be an Atheist - you could simply be apathetic. Many religious people who ignore the threat of retribution also live their lives as if there were no gods. The key point is that an Atheist believes that a god, however defined, does not exist.
Post by
Monday
I shall leave an obligatory "Oh noes" and shall now withdraw from this thread.
Post by
Squishalot
Don't do that, Funden! You're missing out on the opportunity to be labelled as a Jewish Explicit Christian Mormon! :P
Post by
Monday
But then Ahmanutjob will try to nuke me with the rest of Israel )=
Post by
Squishalot
But that's alright - what he doesn't realise is that he's a Jewish Muslim. Once all the world's Jewish subgroups realise that, they can band together under the Jewish umbrella and nuke the hell out of all the Agnostic Atheists out there.
For the crime of abusing the English Language, of course. Nothing against their beliefs.
Post by
Monday
So anyways, this is my obligatory post sequence in an atheist thread =P
And now I'm off to bed, my throat hurts like none other, especially after playing the French Horn. I think I might have strep, which sucks when combined with Asthma that makes me cough. )=
Post by
Skreeran
Hyperspacerebel is a Jewish Christian, going by the example that you and DoctorLore are providing. Agnosticism and Atheism are and should be mutually exclusive.Sigh, that's not how it works. Theism and atheism are about belief. I do not believe in gods, so I am atheist. Gnosticism and agnosticism are about knowledge. I do not know that there are no gods, so I am agnostic.
Theist comes from the root "theos" which means god. I do not believe in god. I am not theist. Thus, I am a-theist.
Gnostic is defined by Dictionary.com as "pertaining to knowledge," and comes from the root "gnost," which means "known." I do not know claim to know that god exists or does not. Thus, I am not gnostic in the matter of religion, and I am a-gnostic.
Thomas Huxley defined the term "agnostic," and I am using his definition. That is the definition used by most people. I don't care if you disagree with the etymology. Agnostic literally means "without knowledge" and by saying that I am an Agnostic Atheist, I am saying that I do not believe in gods, but I am without knowledge of their non-existence.
Wikipedia has an article on Agnostic Atheism.
It appears that I am not the only one to use this definition. I would like to see if you have any sources supporting your definition.
Oxford Dictionaries Online
defines "agnostic" as such:
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God
Skree, in regards to what you've said, it is impossible to be Gnostic about elves and Superman. They are finite and (theoretically) material and therefore do not fall under Gnostic beliefs. Therefore, you cannot be Agnostic about elves and Superman. You can doubt their existence, the same way you can doubt the existence of life on other planets, or NASA's moon landing, but you cannot be 'Agnostic' on these topics.I do not know if Superman exists. I am agnostic. It is possible that on some far flung planet out in space, there exists a civilization parallel to ours, in which a superpowered individual named "Clark Kent" lives a double life as a reporter and superhero.
It is possible, but I doubt it. Yet, despite my doubts, I cannot prove that Superman does not exist. I cannot know that he does not exist. And so I am agnostic.
"Living one's life as if there were no gods" is not sufficient to be an Atheist - you could simply be apathetic. Many religious people who ignore the threat of retribution also live their lives as if there were no gods. The key point is that an Atheist believes that a god, however defined, does not exist.So say you.
Statistically, most people believe in a specific deity of some sort. They are defined as "theists." I do not believe in deities. So I call myself an "atheist" to distinguish myself from them. However, by your definitions, I am neither agnostic nor an athiest. That doesn't make any sense.
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