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10.2.7
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10.2.6
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TANKS! Slow the Hell Down!
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Post by
298017
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
283244
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Jesterzzn
I can get the anger at moving too fast. Not everyone wants to grind all the dungeons with speed runs, and I completely agree.
But people griping about DPS taking aggro and crap, lighten up. Just cause you queued up as a tank doesn't mean that everyone else in the group is unable to tank some trash. Don't freak out if the DK or Pally DPS pull some trash. Just cause I queued up as DPS doesn't mean I can't tank a few mobs here and there.
If its really a hassle for the healer, then they should speak up, but otherwise just roll with it. You are only grouped for 15-20 minutes, and then everyone goes their seperate ways.
I have yet to see a wipe, or even a death, due to Tank/DPS class taking on a couple trash mobs without the tank. No reason to get your feelings hurt.
Yes the game will change soon, but why play the game as it will be? Play it as it is.
Post by
obiwaynekenobi
For me, at least, the issue isn't so much that a DK or Retpally or Arms/Fury Warrior can't tank some trash, it's the mentality that slowly festers as a result of it.
First, if a DPS plate class can tank trash without much worry (either because they'll get some heals or because they can self-heal if necessary), they will be much more likely to go ahead of the tank and pull trash because of the prior reasoning. This leads to the "gogogo" mentality where DPS feel if the tank is going just a hair too slow the DPS will pull things for the tank and not feel any threat because they know from prior experience they can easily take on the trash mobs.
Second, it's rude to the person who is queued as a tank and got chosen for that role. Maybe I just have an oldschool mentality despite being new to the game, but speaking as someone who almost exclusively plays a tank (my DK isn't a tank though, although I'm tempted to try it out), the attitude is pretty much saying "See, tank, we don't really need you in the group" and that's the wrong attitude for ANYONE to have. It's not so much the fact that it matters, because it doesn't on trash, but having DPS who can pull trash without the tank is, in effect, telling the rest of the group they don't need the tank there to begin with. It's a question of knowing your role in a group environment and performing that role, even if you're more than capable of doing another role. As a tank, I appreciate having a plate DPS who can offtank a mob for a few seconds in case it comes from behind, or charges the healer, but I don't need them to go and tank mobs for me - that's why I'm the tank.
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
LookOut
As a tank, I appreciate having a plate DPS who can offtank a mob for a few seconds in case it comes from behind, or charges the healer...
A good tank never, ever, ever needs this in a fiveman environment. Ever.
Dude, if you quote a sentence, quote it completely, he SAYS he doesn't need it.
As a tank, I appreciate having a plate DPS who can offtank a mob for a few seconds in case it comes from behind, or charges the healer, but
I don't need them
to go and tank mobs for me - that's why I'm the tank.
We've all had to learn how to become a good tank. You want me to believe you were pro from the first day that you stepped inside a dungeon on your toon? I doubt that.
That's where a plate dps offtank comes in handy. While leveling my dk (as dps), I've used death grip quote a few times because an add was chewing away at the healer, or the mob was a caster and the tank couldn't silence it to bring into melee range.
Also, in my personal experience, it takes ages to replace a tank in dungeons. Or did something change?
Post by
93865
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Post by
obiwaynekenobi
This is why I don't argue with Aestu, for the record. I know how to use HoR and RD, but it's nice to have someone that can hold a mob's attention for the second it takes to use it. On my DK I go as DPS only and I've often used CoI or even DG to grab a mob away from the healer long enough for the tank to pick it back up, so I know from both sides of the coin how things go.
Post by
481420
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Post by
obiwaynekenobi
Because he makes strong points?
Because he points out minutiae and takes things out of context to "prove" his points while ignoring everything else that someone says.
Post by
Alustriul
Pretty sure Aestu is a girl.... could be wrong though.
Post by
obiwaynekenobi
Pretty sure Aestu is a girl.... could be wrong though.
I don't think we ever came to the conclusion.. I recall in his/her/it's pug thread it was suggested that Aestu was female due to the dwelling on appearance, but all we have to go by is a female toon which, as I'm sure we're aware of, is no indicator of the player's gender.
My point remains that I won't argue with Aestu because Aestu uses political debate techniques (pointing out very specific pieces of an opponent's piece that are easy to refute, while ignoring everything else of value) and vague references to the notion that people "aren't good at this game" while holding him/her/itself as being an example of being "good" at the game. It's not worth my time nor effort to engage in a debate over what makes a "good tank" as I feel I am good, and have gotten no complaints to my skills including up into heroic ICC as well as in lowbie dungeons on my Warrior alt, and to be honest that's all I need. I've conceded already the fact that there is no
one true way
when pulling and it's largely personal preference and what everybody can handle.
Post by
Alustriul
True, but if you argue with her/him/it.... I would be entertained. Isn't that something worth arguing for?
Post by
obiwaynekenobi
True, but if you argue with her/him/it.... I would be entertained. Isn't that something worth arguing for?
I would think I've done that enough, so you should be entertained already :)
Post by
Alustriul
I guess it's up to me then.
"Aestu! I've a bone to pick with you!" said Alustriul.
Post by
Porcell
Aestu's gotta be a dude. He's a tank, and he's good at the game. Girls aren't tanks, girls aren't good at this game, and there certainly aren't any girls who are good tanks.
Yup, definitely a dude.
Post by
173035
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Post by
93865
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Post by
apvalceanu
Aestuu i must say i disagree with your post (at least the one a few posts back). Let me explain why. While i agree that a tank in heroics now should have no problem at aggro and such, i will have to say the pace at which a group goes should not be imposed by 1 man alone (this goes both for Aestu and obiwaynekenobi). Also in general i think it is the tank who should determine the pace in the rare cases where this is needed (a new tank should be given a bit of space / time, or the group should just look for a new one). Let me give you this example to make it a bit clearer:
Was with a group in heroics after patch me as tank and i asked them nicely to go a bit slower because it was my first time tanking after patch and i wanted to get grip of new mechanics. Everyone was fine with it and even though i didnt feel they held back, i generally never lost aggro, with 1-2 exceptions. One dps (think hunter) had the idea of pulling things before i got to them to even hit them once, and even if i do not pull whole rooms atm, i do pull one group after the other virtually without any time in between (so no downtime). So after 2 pulls like this i just neglected the mob heading towards that guy and he took damage - his life dropped to about 10-20% before being able to kill the mob alone. Everyone else was attacking the group i wan one. After this happened the healer told the guy to stop pulling before me and let me tank, and things went smooth from there on.
Ok seeing how no one else got mobs off me i doubt it was a threat issue. Also considering there was no downtime at all between groups i do not see any point in wanting to go faster, seeing how the only possible way for this to go faster (in my mind) was for me to pull whole room and EVERYONE to go full AoE, and even then there would be certain issues (example - if anyone decided to go full single-target dps before i gathered the mobs). So all things considered i have to say no single person should determine the pace of a run (with the 1 exception i mentioned).
This being said - when i go as a dps it is my way of "respecting" the tank by not pulling before him. If the tank is bad i would rather tell him and get new tank, because i find this to be so much more "fair" towards the guy then just taking a piss at him by pretending he is not there. And even though i do not expect to be "respected" when i tank, i do expect people to have that bit of courtesy to express any kind of "problems" in a nice way before doing what this guy did. (be it speed of run or anything else) I would rather step back and let someone better do the job if everyone felt i wasnt up for it, then being ignored that way.
At least that is how i perceive things.
It's not a "matter of preference" if one side has no positive qualities to recommend it over the other - it's being stubborn in using inferior methods.
As long as you do not know how OWK tank or if the rest of his group has different "preferences" of how the run should go, what gives you the right to judge the way he is tanking? Without taking sides here, this statement seems to me to be just as "bad" as every thing you criticize about OWK and his "one way" view on tanking. Just as you asked OWK "what give you the right to say what is the best way of tanking?" (more or less) i would like to ask you "what gives you the right to judge what method is inferior?" (again i am not taking sides - just trying to be as fairto one as to the other here) Is this not just as self-righteous?
Post by
apvalceanu
Needing, or even wanting, or having any occasion to make use of, an OT in a fiveman isn't a matter of "personal preference". It's a shortcoming. A better tank wouldn't need, want, or have occasion to use one, and be the better for it - more functional - whereas your need or inclination in this regards is nothing but a weakness. There's no upside.
Mate, where did you get the idea that OWK needed an OT? as far as i read his post it is talking about his lo level warrior alt in lower level instances, not about an OT. It seems to me that you are somehow attacking OWK for having a different tanking style then you (this is saying it from an outside point of view) and sometimes it seems to me you are so steamed that you misinterpret his words.
I apologize if this is not the case and maybe i misread. Edited - apparently i did read the wrong thing :P
P.S. WTB a lesson in writing shorter but at the same time just as clear posts. :P
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