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"Article" at WoWInsider - Trashing warriors?
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Post by
Arideni
This was brought to my attention recently & I must say, "It's a shame."
Link to article in question:
http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/03/13/have-prot-warriors-been-left-behind/
Here are a few of my favourite parts:
Pallies can AoE farm down four or five mobs at a time, Ferals can OT and DPS, warriors?
Not only do we not get to run those instances when we're gearing up, we don't get to run them once we have! . . . the better my block, parry and dodge get the more I have to fight like a fiend to try and keep one mob locked down.
. . .not that I was a bad tank, but that my class had no way to recover from bad behavior from another player. . .
I wasn't tanking even in five mans, because that's where all the druids and paladins were superior tanks. Flat out superior. Just plain better, with no better gear, with no better experience, just abilities that worked better.
Who knows? It might be a good "discussion" as he called it -- that's up to the individual to decide. Personally, I wanted to put a tomato peeler to my face by the time I got to the end.
How can one directly compare 3 items so inherently different? I say one cannot simply lump all three classes (druid, paladin, warrior) into one & expect anything short of non-sensical ranting -- and it's an
article
. Indeed.
I am curious, though. What does the rest of the community think?
I leave with a link from Veneretio:
http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/02/19/the-biggest-myth-about-protection-warriors/
Post by
Jagr
When I was prot spec I was able to hold aggro and still do moderate damage with a one hander. The shieldblock/revenge macro rocks. One thing that %^&*es me off about warrior tanks and I dunno whether or not this is true about other classes, is that I need a $%^&load of +defense items just to tank for a heroic. I haven't even attempted pve since I got 70 because I can't get prot gear without doing heroics/raids with which I'm asked to be a tank yet i don't have the correct gear to do so... PVP 4 LIFE. I'd rather be a warrior over druid or pally in pvp any day.
Post by
dpoyesac
How can one directly compare 3 items so inherently different? I say one cannot simply lump all three classes (druid, paladin, warrior) into one & expect anything short of non-sensical ranting
First, let me say that I read (and commented on) the original article as well as the predecessors and the follow-up -- the various WoWInsider tank writers have been having a long discussion about the state of various tanking classes. Mathew's was the longest, the most histrionic but also the most thought-out.
But I gotta call you on this. You seem so be saying that the basic premise of Rossi's article is flawed because warrior tanks, paladin tanks and druid tanks are so inherently different that any comparision is apples to oranges to mangoes.
I'm sorry, but no. Direct, empirical comparison is easy as pie. You have a warrior tank heroic Shattered Halls. Then you have a comparably geared, comparably skilled paladin tank heroic Shattered Halls. And then you have a comparably geared, comparably skilled druid tank heroic Shattered Halls. You have simply lumped three inherently different classes into one role and have been able to directly compare the abilities of the classes themselves.
Disagree with Mathew's article all you want -- which is fine, because it is part of an ongoing dialogue. There is no dialogue where everyone agrees! But I'd ask you give better reasons for your disagreement.
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95950
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Post by
blademeld
lolololol @ author's QQ
disregarding that:
Warrior tanks make lovely single target tanks, simply due to the fact that shield block = threat for them
Warriors have the most "oh @#$%" buttons
Warriors have the best balance of AC, HP, and avoidance imo
I don't know why the guy is complaining, and overall Yakra is right about everything
:P
Post by
69354
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Post by
Arideni
I want to say thanks to all of those who shared their thoughts about this issue. I hope even more people will respond about the original post, as I am very interested in what
other
communities online feel about such "articles." Yakra did an excellent job at ripping apart his "rant" & I only wish I had the time to do such yesterday.
-----
Many of the author's points were in fact well-intentioned, but his lack of true support for his claims was astounding. The very fact the author seemed to embrace the use of Windfury Totem is a testament to his ability (Hello, Mr. Parry Mechanic!) and speaks volumes. I believe if one is unable to compensate without a specific ability or tool, then perhaps one should re-evaluate personal ability rather than presume all players have the same problem.
Understand that I do not call the use of any spell/ability at one's disposal a crutch, but incompetency without said spell/ability borders retardation.
I want to make a quick response for those who said warriors, druids, and paladins could be compared, if all equally geared/competent. I believe the author was whining more about the level of "work" required by each of the three classes, in relation to his own. This again, goes to show how bloated an opinion of himself is expressed. I believe that to say a player, in an equally difficult scenario, has to work any less than another to achieve success is folly.
The tools of each class are different, duh, but the user must exercise the same amount of dedication, understanding, and execution regardless.
It is in my humble opinion, that the author may have the tools & gear to achieve success (despite his saying otherwise), but it would appear he lacks
heart
.
Overall, I'm still disgusted by the writer & am no longer interested in his "opinion" column. The rant in question came off, not well-thought as someone above said, but rather as a poor, self-validating rhetoric about his bad guild experiences. I say, "Get over it." There's more to the story than his perspective & if it had been posted as a topic in the forums, dismissed as an outright cry for help. I wish I could hear from the raid leaders & other tanks, in a more "well-thought" manner, to be honest.
I will end my post by saying the author did in fact touch on a few points about our class, but that there was little to no supporting statements as to why things are & how they could be changed. Yakra's post in & of itself was a better article & would much rather read
real articles
such as the following, by Ciderhelm:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=4821923212&sid=1
-----
What is said on WoWinsider to get a few more clicks can create a dangerous perception that could prevent players from choices they'd enjoy, or make them feel bad about choices they've already made.
Source:
http://www.theoryspot.com/forums/theory-articles/35925-wowinsider-trashes-warriors.html
I couldn't agree more.
Post by
dpoyesac
I don't want to sound like I blindly agree with Rossi, but I do want to defend his primary claim a bit -- simply because it
hasn't
been addressed so far, in anything I've read in response to his essay (not rant, not article, but essay, like you write in college composition classes, with a thesis, an argument and supporting evidence). Most responses have been refutations of minor points, missteps or complaints about something Rossi
didn't
say, rather than a real furthering of the discussion he hoped to start.
Rossi wasn't claiming that warrior tanks are broken, or are only viable on 25-man bosses, or are inherently harder to play when compared to a (purportedly) one-button tank like a paladin. Twitchier, yes, but not harder.
Rossi
was
talking about the
perceptions
that people in general have about the various kinds of tanks, and was using examples of game mechanics that seem to reinforce those perceptions.
To start:
Paladins and Druids have an edge in five man content. This is true, and was needed to break them into the tanking scene in BC. I imagine that things will become more balanced in the future.
This is exactly the core of Rossi's argument. Rossi's tone was a bit more heated and came across as 'I
reallyreallyreally
demand that things will become more balanced in the future or I'll cry!' rather than Yakra's more levelheaded "I imagine that..." (And I fully believe that it was Rossi's histrionic tone that most people *ahem* Arideni *ahem* are responding too, instead of his arguments, much to the detriment of the discussion.)
So if Rossi isn't claiming that warriors are broken, what is he saying that hasn't been addressed, on this thread or anywhere else? He is saying (in essence) that the "edge in five man content" has a disproportionate affect on the perceptions of warrior tanks,
when you are on the casual side of the casual/hardcore divide
.
I would love to be tanking in the Black Temple, but the truth is -- because of life, love and everything -- I probably never will. The vast majority of Warcraft players never will, either. They, and I, will probably never see the Reliquary of Souls or any of those other encounters where warrior tanks shine. Half the time my guild has to PuG out raid spots to get in our weekly Kara appearance. In order to tank as much as I want to tank (because, after all, tanking is more fun than anything else!) I have to PuG, I have to put together mismatched groups from whomever is on my friends list, I have to scrounge runs. So, I don't have the luxury of saying:
it's saying that it's okay to lack viability in trash mob tanking so long as you're still strong against bosses.
I care about bosses more then trash. (and despite his claims, I think DPS warriors can tank trash fine).
I have to care about trash, because the vast majority of my tanking will be against trash. Not to brag, but I can tank the hell out of trash -- I have worked very hard at learning how to mark, how to use my abilities and how to write macros in order to be able to tank trash.
But when I respond to a LFG for heroic Shattered Halls, my ability to tank the hell out of trash doesn't get me in on the run if the healer is convinced that only a paladin can tank that infamous 7-pull -- and it is
exactly this
that Rossi was writing about, and it is exactly this point that I haven't seen addressed yet: that the structure of the encounters in Burning Crusade instances seems to reinforce (whether right or wrong!) that healer's perception of what warrior tanks can or can't do.
I know its a wall of text, but I wanted to shift the discussion back on track, because I think it's an interesting question: what is the future of the warrior class when the class' mechanics and the structure of modern instances combine to (as many have pointed out: wrongly!) convince many players that warriors can't tank much of BC? Is the
perception
of the class a real problem?
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Post by
dpoyesac
I would say that
there are not currently any warrior specific five mans in TBC
, as there are Druid/Paladin ones, but I think this was so that budding druid and paladin tanks were not shot down.
I think that by WotLC's release, the community will be ready for Warrior favoring five man dungeons
, and perceptions about all classes strengths and weaknesses should come to balance.
Is this a solution to a current problem some are experiencing? No. Is this hope for the future, for those whom are discouraged now?
Yes.
I think that this is exactly right, and I suspect that Rossi (if he's cooled down by now) would agree. I'm leveling a new warrior tank-to-be on a PvP server and I keep hearing that there is no future in it and that I shoudl have rolled pally -- but once I hit 70 (and 80) I believe that tune will change.
Thanks for your thoughtful response, Yakra. I think it really clarified the issues and moved the
discussion
forward. After reading tanking blogs, tanking forums, tanking posts and tanking threads, I really believe that tanks are the most able and willing to engage in complex and subtle discussion and analysis about their role amd abilities. I think that's one of the reasons why I am so attracted to tanks and warriors -- simply, the tanking community is the best in WoW.
Post by
Arideni
It is in my humble opinion that Mr. Rossi should not have published such writing without research into the other areas of his "essay." Without valid issues from the druid & paladin perspective, his opinion becomes categorized as "ignorant."
It serves as an uninformed, critical breakdown of the warrior class written primarily while reading work already done by Ciderhelm. I don't dispute there are issues with our class, but our issues are not the fault of fellow druid & paladin tanks. The very basis that druids & paladins are needed in a discussion of warrior woes is ill-founded. Journalism of his kind are little more than "formal" QQ posts.
I would like some responsible journalism, but as our extended community over at
www.tankspot.com
believes, WoWInsider, and thusly Rossi's column, exist solely for the purpose of generating page views. I'll definitely be re-directing my browser in the future.
When I want excellent discussions from the warrior community, I'll stick with what works: wowhead.com. I appreciate the feedback & discussion from everyone here (and wish for more people to post in response!).
Also, we have heard from some paladins, but let's hear some talk from the druids - surely many of you out there have some experience with them. What do your friends/guildmates think about the class balance?
Post by
Aris
I think he's confusing the word "better" with the word "easier".
I havnt found any content yet in game that i, as a prot war, felt i couldnt tank well. Ive done all the 5man's on Normal and Heroic, am able to finish any of them without wipes. And i'm now into T5 raiding content. Never have i had a time where i felt like i couldnt finish the content because of the restrictions of my class.
Now sure, there are some things that are very hard for me, as a warrior, to do. Like Heroic Shattered Halls. A pally tank has it ez mode, but i have to work my ass off to get the same effect. But never to the point where i was unable to complete said content.
The biggest problem ive seen with pally tanks though, is once they go OOM, they are done. They might as well be dead, because they arnt going to be tanking much of anything for very much longer. So they do have their limitations. In long fights, a warrior will be able to maintain and exceed any pally's TPS output.
Bear tanks will never be uncrushable, and the higher their avoidance (dodge), the more they get crushed. This is the biggest drawback for them. For some fights its fine, because the content in question cant crush, but for others its a game ender. And for the record, i have tanked with my 70 druid. I prefer tanking as a warrior though, and healing with my druid now. The bear tank nerf was the reason i rolled a warrior, and im so glad i did. I'll never go back to bear tanking.
At the end of the day, the warrior may not always have it easy, but they CAN do it all, and outlast any other tanking class. This is where warriors shine. No other class can make that statement. It may take more skill, or more effort, but it can be done if your good.
Post by
dagthunderer
In response to Arideni's question at the end of his last post, it depends. The guild I started the xpac in had imo the best horde players on our server. They had a druid and a warrior who between the two of them could probably tank anything. Unfortunately, from my perspective, the GM seemed to be of the opinion (like many others) that only a druid could tank the majority of fights. Personally, I will agree that our druid had a much easier time tanking on some fights (Morogrim, Void Reaver, and the shaman fathom guard come to mind). In this case it was fine b/c we had the players to make pretty much anything work.
In the guild I'm currently in, we rarely have that option. We consistantly have 3 prot warriors and 1 feral druid at raids. I'm not sure how everyone feels about the class balance, as I have very little evidence of them thinking there's an imbalance. However, no one really prefers or demands that they have a specific tanking class for anything. We have a lot of warriors, so warriors end up tanking a lot, but I've been trying to rotate in the warriors who don't tank as much and, even more so perhaps, the feral druid and prot pally (when we have him) so that the tanks learn the fights and the guild learns the fight with something other than a warrior.
In the end, I think the class balance has to be just that; a balance. I agree that each of the classes excels in certain areas and that many people are biased to one class or another, but that is a very short sighted way to go about anything. In order for guilds to succeed they need to have a mix of people and classes that everyone is familiar with and can adjust to.
Post by
dpoyesac
This might be beating a dead horse, but I feel I need to jump in again -- real quick though, and then I'm out!
It is in my humble opinion that Mr. Rossi should not have published such writing without research into the other areas of his "essay." Without valid issues from the druid & paladin perspective, his opinion becomes categorized as "ignorant."
For the record, the Rossi essay we are discussing was the third in a series of four, as several Wowinsider writers went back and forth on hybrids, warriors and tanking. Alex Zeibart posted
here
and
here
on Paladin tanking, and Allison Robert discussed druids and paladins specifically (and responded to the previous posts)
here
. Rossi's' essay was structured (at least in part) as a response to comments made in the first two posts, and their internal discussion that followed. Maybe it was reading it in this context ithat allowed me to see Rossi's points in a different, more charitable light and not just as a giant QQ session.
And of course Wowinsider is all about the page views while tankpot.com isn't, but that's not a valid knock against them. That's like saying the Washington Post is a bad source of analysis since they aren't as in-depth or sophisticated as
Foreign Affairs
. Blogs are not forums -- different rules, different standards. Personally, I'm glad Wowinsider is trying to generate pageviews by stimulating discussion (like the fruitful one we are having here) and not just linking to posts on
mmo-champoin.com
.
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