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The The Shattering: Prelude to Cataclysm Discussion Thread (Spoilers Abound)
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Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Maybe it's just because I don't believe in fate, but the idea that her "destiny" was to be killed in such and unfair and brutal manner seems abhorrent to me.
Standard rule of fantasy : Death is never meaningless. (nor permanent)
The wording may be bad, but it's somewhat true that Taretha's death made Thrall into who he is.Yeah, that is true, but that still doesn't make it right. She didn't deserve to die, and her death was unnecessary, even if good came of it.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Then again, is there any other point in which Aggra
doesn't say
something completely inappropriate in the Shattering?Fix'd that for you Sigma....
As for Taretha; if the Nightmare story proved anything, it's how deeply it cut at Thrall, and was part of something that forged him into what he currently is; had it never happened, we'd have a different Thrall then what we do.
Post by
Skreeran
Then again, is there any other point in which Aggra
doesn't say
something completely inappropriate in the Shattering?Fix'd that for you Sigma....
As for Taretha; if the Nightmare story proved anything, it's how deeply it cut at Thrall, and was part of something that forged him into what he currently is; had it never happened, we'd have a different Thrall then what we do.But that's completely irrelevant. My point is that, no matter the good consequences that happened to come of it, you can't say that it was "right," or fair, or that it was somehow her destiny.
Most of our knowledge on how the body reacts to freezing comes from Nazi experimentation on victims of the Holocaust, but even though that data saves lives now does not mean that the experiments were a good thing, or that it was fair to the victims, or that it was--by some perverse twist of logic--their destiny to be frozen to death in the Holocaust so that data extracted from their bodies could save people later.
Post by
Adamsm
It's never right when someone dies, especially for the reason Taretha did....but it's still one of the things that made Thrall what he is.
Post by
Skreeran
It's never right when someone dies, especially for the reason Taretha did....but it's still one of the things that made Thrall what he is.But you must understand my point. I don't think it's right to suggest that it was her "fate" to be killed the way she was.
Post by
Adamsm
/shrug Fate exists in the Warcraft universe(and our own, whether people believe in it or not); had Taretha lived, what then? Durnholde would not have been destroyed, Blackmoore would still be alive, and who knows what else would have changed.
Yes, Taretha's death was sad....but think of the woman herself: Would she want Thrall to be 'sad' that she was gone, and have it affect his life? Or would she have rather he lived on, honouring her memory...which he does.
And fate sucks: Little kids die of cancer due to the cruel hand of whatever you want to call it. Good people die, bad people live, and so on and so forth.
Post by
Skreeran
Like I said, I don't think fate exists, but that's beside the point.
It doesn't feel right to suggest that it was someone's fate to be brutally murdered just so that they could have a small positive effect on someone else, and it feels disgusting to say that it was "right" that Teretha died the way she did. The positive consequences to not negate the wrongness of the act, nor does it do anything to negate the horror of what happened.
Like I said, just because we have been able to indirectly save lives thanks to the Holocaust, that doesn't make the Holocaust any less horrific, and it certainly doesn't make it right.
Post by
Adamsm
That's a given; yes, she died brutally at the hands of a man who was a 'monster'.....yet, she died helping her 'brother' and tried her best to believe that all orcs were just like Thrall, and not the demons that they had been painted by the Alliance history(well...).
Beyond that....it happens; history always does that.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
It doesn't feel right to suggest that it was someone's fate to be brutally murdered just so that they could have a small positive effect on someone else, and it feels disgusting to say that it was "right" that Teretha died the way she did. The positive consequences to not negate the wrongness of the act, nor does it do anything to negate the horror of what happened.This, on so many levels. As I've seen someone put it, it basically says, "oh, it was her
destiny
to get fridged!"
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
well, I've finished the shattering last night........
WHAT AN AWESOME BOOK, loved it, definitly did.
I'm nearly speechless about it.
Though I'm getting tired of the twilight hammer making the horde look bad =( why can't it ever be the other way arround?
whenever there's a peace meeting, twilight hammer members disguise themselves as horde, and wreak havok and the horde ends up taking all the fallout about the attack. Just once I'd wish to see it happen the other way arround.
also, Golden's lines describing new orgrimmar very much reflect my own opinion of that city.
Orgrimmar had indeed been rebuilt, but it was barely recognizable. All of the damaged buildings had been replaced, but not with the wooden, thatched, or hide-covered roofs that had been in place before. Citing a need to keep Orgrimmar “safe from future fires,” Garrosh had commissioned metal instead of combustible materials. One could argue that his choice was a reasonable one.
One could also feel a shiver of unease at how very, very much the new architecture resembled the old. Cairne had never traveled to Draenor himself, but he had seen images of Hellfire Citadel and some of the other buildings created by the orcs when they were in the grip of the demonic bloodlust. Black iron, wrought into jutting, pointed, brutal-looking buildings that were practical but
unwelcoming
. Now, here in the Horde capital city, one could imagine tools of torture lurking within, rather than the simple groceries and items the buildings actually housed
I wasn't very sure of Thrall's new mate, but I guess it was imposible for him to be with jaina U_U after reading more about Aggra, I've changed my opinion of her, and I'm sure they will make a fine couple.
also..... I will DEEPLY enjoy killing magatha once the servers are up, I'll kill her with a HUGE grin from ear-to-ear.
Post by
GVHB
whenever there's a peace meeting, twilight hammer members disguise themselves as horde, and wreak havok and the horde ends up taking all the fallout about the attack. Just once I'd wish to see it happen the other way arround.
Well, there were also Alliance races member of the Twilight Hammer during their attack on the peace summit at Theramore (that lead Garrosh to believe that the attack was orchestrated by Varian and the summit
was a trap
).
also..... I will DEEPLY enjoy killing magatha once the servers are up, I'll kill her with a HUGE grin from ear-to-ear.
At Thousand Needles, you actually have to help her kill the Twilight Cultists that had imprisoned her (she is neutral and I don't think there is a way to be able to attack her). But we will likely meet her again later on the expansion and kill her.
Post by
Skreeran
Glad you enjoyed the book. :)
I agree about Orgrimmar, as well, but I think a major part of why I don't like it is just because it's an obvious intimidatory tactic against the Alliance. Garrosh's Orgrimmar is just chest-beating and posturing "Come at me bro" type stuff.
As long as the Horde acts the part of the big scary brute, the Alliance will always have an easy source of anti-Horde propaganda.
What did you think of the Taretha topic we were discussing above?
Post by
Rankkor
At Thousand Needles, you actually have to help her kill the Twilight Cultists that had imprisoned her (she is neutral and I don't think there is a way to be able to attack her). But we will likely meet her again later on the expansion and kill her.
WTF? wasn't she WITH the twilight hammer?, how come they hold her prisoner? and more importantly WHY THE HELL WOULD WE RESCUE HER? if the twilights captured her, I say let them sacrifice her in an altar or some other much worst ("and i must scream") fate.
I agree about Orgrimmar, as well, but I think a major part of why I don't like it is just because it's an obvious intimidatory tactic against the Alliance. Garrosh's Orgrimmar is just chest-beating and posturing "Come at me bro" type stuff.
my main complaint is that orgrimmar is suposed to be a city, A CITY, not a prison, nor a barrack, a city.
look at Stormwind, how despite being well fortified, it still looks like a city with homes, a place to live. Now take a look at orgrimmar, how despite being very reinforced, it looks like everything BUT a home, as golden said, one would expect to find torture equipment and execution chambers inside rather than a cozy fireplace and a loving home.
the image of a redecorated Gulag comes to mind to best describe how orgrimmar looks like.
As long as the Horde acts the part of the big scary brute, the Alliance will always have an easy source of anti-Horde propaganda.
the worst part is that the twilight hammer are determined to make the horde look bad, not the alliance. Is not fair that whenever they attack someone, it's the horde who take the fallout.
just look at the theramoore summit, the twilight attacked the horde, and yet in the mind of most people, that part was swept under the rug, people only remember garona attacking varian, and varian spitting his bullshit acusation that Thrall was a coward and a traitor.
then it happened again with the sentinels, and again with the druids, and in all these attacks the common denominator is that the horde takes the blame, the horde is the one who must apologize, the horde is the one who is made to look like the bad guy.
What did you think of the Taretha topic we were discussing above?
that's one part of the book I never liked, NOTHING justifies murder, specially when the corpse is defiled,Thareta didn't deserved to die, and her death was not and will never be "Right". is true that Thrall shouldn't blame himself anymore for her death as there was nothign he could had done, but he shouldn't also think that it was ok for her to die.
just as I don't think that it was ok for Aerin to die even if her death tempered Anduin's resolve.
and that's all I have to say about that.
now there's 3 stuff I wanna discuss:
A: Gazlowe was awesome :P reminding me again why goblins are so full of win, his antics and dialog was great, and I was truly touched to see how he REFUSED the small fortune he was being paid, because he truly felt simpaty and loyalty to Cairne. That a goblin refuses MONEY up front says a lot about that dude, and my respect for him just increased tenfold.
B: the last segment of the book gave me hopes that Thrall will indeed return as warchief one day, and that we only have to endure garrosh for a couple of years at most:
“Your courier told us to get this ship ready, and we did!” Gazlowe said. “Fresh water, a few barrels of beer and grog, plenty of supplies—you’re all set for your voyage, Warchief!” He did a double take at Aggra and then bowed low. “Hel-lo, you must be the lovely young shaman I’ve heard so much about.”
“I am a shaman, and my name is Aggra,” she said, eyes narrowing. “And you might be?”
“Gazlowe. Me and that big lug of yours go way back,” the goblin said, beaming. Clearly either he hadn’t noticed Aggra was irritated, or else he simply was unperturbed by it. “Like what you’ve done with his style. Simple brown robes—understated, sharp. It’s a good look for the big guy. Always happy to have the warchief and, now, his lady come to visit.”
“I am not the warchief,” Thrall said, “
not for some time anyway
. Garrosh will continue as
acting
warchief
in my absence
.”
carefully take a look at the wording.
if he had intended to leave his position as warchief permanently he would had said "I'm not the warchief, not anymore" instead of "I'm not the warchief, not for
some time
anyways" and how he adressed garrosh.
if Garrosh was to permanently rule the horde, he would had said "Garrosh will continue as Warchief from this day on" but he said "Garrosh will be ACTING warchief
in my absence
"
from my POV, he's implying that once is absence is over, he will retake the warchief mantle. It's but a small hope, but a hope is better than none.
and now C:
this is an important question: why weren't the elemental invasions on orgrimmar, stormwind, ironforge, and thunderbluff adressed on the book? did they never happened? on the game, when these invasions happened, both magni and cairne were alive, wich means they happened before the book, why weren't they addressed?
Post by
Skreeran
With the Twlight's Hammer and the Horde, the fact of the matter is that it's easy to blame the Horde. While the Alliance would be quick to cover up or apologize for something as brutal as the attack on the Sentinels, the Horde has prideful opposition to apology, and in some cases will actively support the attacks. Hence Thrall's inability to act as he wanted in the matter.
The Horde is a very easy target for blame, especially when many of them will live right up to the Alliance's expectations.
As for Thrall, I perceived his wording to mean that he was uncertain. Kind of like Blizzard's "we have no plans for this at the moment, but I wouldn't rule it out in the future" excuse that they use for a lot of things (Valve did the same thing with Adrian Shepard).
I really don't think Thrall is actively planning to come back, at least not until he fulfills his destiny as a shaman and can come back unified. Thrall loves the Horde, but in the Warchief position, he's forced to always act in the Horde's best interest, rather than acting in accordance with what he knows is right, and he hates having to betray his morals like that.
I doubt he'll come back as long as that means sacrificing personal ethics for pragmatism.
Also, the invasion was addressed, at least to some extent. Remember the Orgrimmar fire? The invasions in Ironforge, Stormwind, and TB weren't documented in the book, but it wouldn't really be very fun to only have the invasion happen in Orgrimmar only. I would've liked it if they had done something different for the event, though, like a fire in Orgrimmar, the Grimtotem coup in TB, Magni's transformation and Moira's police state in IF, etc.
But this was fun too, I suppose.
Post by
Rankkor
it makes me reflect, what was moira trying to acomplish? she's quite stupid IMO.
at least magatha had a plan, kill cairne, take over thunderbluff, eliminate baine, and wiht nobody else having a strong claim to leadership, she would ascend to High Chieftain, and those who did not wanted to follow her rule would be executed or banished.
Moira on the other hand, arrives to the city with her dark iron hommies, and places the entire place under lockdown, having anduin hostage. What was she trying to acomplish? she was already alienated to her people by bringing dark irons to the city, placing them on a police state didn't exactly sweeted her image to them, and holding anduin as hostage only incurred the wrath of the easy-to-anger human king.
quite frankly, she's a rather dumb queen and pseudo-emperess
Post by
Skreeran
Well, she didn't expect anyone to challenge her rule. She made sure to keep everything legal, at least on the surface, and thought she had the city by the huevos thanks to her right to succession.
Post by
Adamsm
after reading more about Aggra, I've changed my opinion of her, and I'm sure they will make a fine couple.Meh, still a massive shoe horn.
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