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The The Shattering: Prelude to Cataclysm Discussion Thread (Spoilers Abound)
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Post by
FarseerLolotea
Took a few levels of fighter, but most of them were Barbarian. He just grabbed the free feats.Four levels of fighter, to be exact. For weapon spec, you know.
(Captcha was "succeeded goldirt." I won that ore fair and square?)
ETA: I've just had the opportunity to read
The Shattering
. And...it was about what I'd expected.
Post by
Rankkor
well, I FINNALY had some oportunity to read a few more chapters of the shattering, i'll submit my impressions of the book when I'm done, but there's 3 lines that I wanted to quote, simply because I just have to XD.
“Thrall!” bellowed Varian. He whirled on Jaina, glaring at her. “He authorized this!
And you prevented
ME
from killing him when I had the chance
!”
JA JA JA, I would had loved to see you try chin-boy, I would had LOVED to see you try. Of course then you'd be little more than a bloody pulp of meat on the ground. He's just too stubborn to get the point that jaina saved his butt, and he should be gratefull that she did, else stormwind would be without its king rite now (well, not entirely true, if Varian died Anduin would be the new king, but u get what I'm saying)
also, after reading about the "dual personality of varian" it just hit me: Oh my gahhh, the humans have a schizophrenic as a king o_O
“It is a pity,” Eitrigg said, apropos of apparently nothing.
“What is?” asked Thrall.
“That she is not an orc,”(refering to jaina) Eitrigg said. “Strong and smart and greathearted. A leader all on her own. She would bear strong sons and brave daughters. A fine mate she could make someone someday, if she so chose.
A pity she is not an orc, and so cannot be yours
.”
Eitrigg....... bro' I agree to that statement so much it's not even funny anymore T_T why did they had to sink the jaina+thrall ship? I've been looking foward to that union since Warcraft 3 dammit! >.<
“My advisors are my weapons as I struggle to always do what is best for the Horde. They see things I do not, present options I did not know I had. Only a fool would scorn such things.
And I do not think you a fool
.”
for the love of God, do NOT get me started on that.
and here's the last one, Garrosh's repply to that above statement:
“
I am not a fool
, Warchief.”
I beg to differ...... boy
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Glad your liking it so far Rank.
Tell me, as you found in how Golden tried to pass Garrosh off as having some sense, does it wash with you, after the example you linked there, that it even showed him maturing beyond the same idiot he was in northrend, or is Golden just trying to beat a dead horse here?
Post by
Rankkor
JA JA JA, I would had loved to see you try chin-boy, I would had LOVED to see you try. Of course then you'd be little more than a bloody pulp of meat on the ground. He's just too stubborn to get the point that jaina saved his butt, and he should be gratefull that she did, else stormwind would be without its king rite now (well, not entirely true, if Varian died Anduin would be the new king, but u get what I'm saying)
Actually, the way it's been presented, had the fight taken place, both would have died. Thrall wasn't facing a crisis to the world, so elemental intervention would be lessened and let's face it, Thrall had difficulty against Garrosh (I honestly believe Thrall'd have won in the end, clean, but he still had difficulty), whom you'll agree is a lesser warrior than Varian, with lesser weapons (due to lolcomics' "Let's give Varian everything ever!"). Where Thrall could have dispatched Varian would be out in the open. They're in a closed space, with Varian all up in his grill.
Both would have died, leaving quite the reverse echo with Garrosh likely taking the Warchief mantle, and Anduin being crowned king. The hot-headed and cool-headed roles would have been reversed.
u're forgetting a very VERY important detail here bro'
Saurfang arrived mere seconds after varian attacked thrall.
on a 1 vs 1 fight of Varian vs Thrall, I have no doubts thrall would had won, maybe not in a "1-shot" way, but he would had won, but when we're talking of Thrall+saurfang vs Varian, or just Saurfang vs Varian, there's no bloody way in hell varian would had won.
to paraphrase a line said by Baine in Cataclysm: "It took the might of the lich king to slain a lesser saurfang, what chances do you HONESTLY think Varian has against the greater one?"
also to take in consideration is this: Thrall didn't had "Dificulties" against garrosh, as the comic version (wich is more detailed, and thus more "canon" than the videogame version) clearly shows that while thrall dind't used his shamanism against garrosh, both were on equal footing, but as soon as Thrall used his shamanistic powers, he swatted garrosh aside like a flea.
as a last point: Thrall is indeed prone to displaying chivalry to his oponents, often restraining himself to give his enemy a fighting chance (he did so against blackmoore, he did so again with garrosh) and I do believe he would had done so with varian as well, refusing to use his shamanistic powers that would had allowed him to end the fight in a single hit. BUT that was Thrall alone, Saurfang is a completely diferent matter.
Saurfang is honorable, but he is a pragmatist and he never ever shows hesitation when dealing with an enemy, he allways fights at full strenght, and he's fanatically loyal to Thrall, to the point that if he witnessed someone trying to assassinate his warchief, that someone would feel close and personal what exactly is
Saurfang's Rage
not for nothing his most badass quote is:
"I am he who watches they.
I am the fist of retribution
. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief?
DARE YOU FACE MY MERCILESS JUDGEMENT?
"
Say what you will of varian, his swords, his armor that seemingly apeared out of nowhere, and of his skills as a gladiator, all of that is a squat ZERO when compared to Saurfang.
ze endo.
Tell me, as you found in how Golden tried to pass Garrosh off as having some sense, does it wash with you, after the example you linked there, that it even showed him maturing beyond the same idiot he was in northrend, or is Golden just trying to beat a dead horse here?
for now I gonna withold any judgement about garrosh till I actually finish the book, I only had time to read till chapter 13, wich is not even half of the book, so it's too soon to tell.
Post by
GVHB
to paraphrase a line said by Baine in Cataclysm: "It took the might of the lich king to slain a lesser saurfang, what chances do you HONESTLY think Varian has against the greater one?"
The might of the Lich King? Arthas one-shotted Dranosh.
Post by
Rankkor
to paraphrase a line said by Baine in Cataclysm: "It took the might of the lich king to slain a lesser saurfang, what chances do you HONESTLY think Varian has against the greater one?"
The might of the Lich King? Arthas one-shotted Dranosh.
exactly, it took the power of a lich king to kill a lesser saurfang, how much chances does varian think he would have against senior saurfang?
Post by
GVHB
I don't think you understood what I said. Dranosh didn't stand a chance against the Lich King, so it doesn't matter the Lich King killed Saurfang jr, it wasn't a fair fight. Dranosh was not as powerful as the Lich King.
Post by
Rankkor
I don't think you understood what I said. Dranosh didn't stand a chance against the Lich King, so it doesn't matter the Lich King killed Saurfang jr, it wasn't a fair fight. Dranosh was not as powerful as the Lich King.
=/ na, u mistook the context of the phrase.
what I meant to say, is that only a highly powerfull being like the lich king (or any other super-power like deathwing) could down a saurfang in a 1vs1 match, common fighters don't really stand a chance against them.
so far, out of the 4 known saurfangs, the 2 that have died, have died fighting a super-powerfull being that surpases the strenght of any average joe.
Varian is no such super-powered being, and as such stands no chance against Varok (maybe he can win against thura, since she's still inexperienced)
Post by
Skreeran
Well, that's something of a flawed argument... :P
One of my ancestors was hung at the Salem witch trials, but that doesn't mean I can only be killed by hanging.
But I agree that Varok would have demolished Varian. Saurfang was Orgrim's second-in-command, and that doesn't come cheaply.
Post by
GVHB
what I meant to say, is that only a highly powerfull being like the lich king (or any other super-power like deathwing) could down a saurfang in a 1vs1 match, common fighters don't really stand a chance against them.
I'm not sure about that, the way I read that is like saying the Saurfangs are on par with being like Sargeras and the Lich King. Both Saurfang that were killed were easily overpowered by their opponents (Sargeras and the Lich King). They didn't fight enemies on their level of power. I could say that someone like Dranosh is on the same level of power than Garrosh or Varian. I agree that Varian couldn't beat Varok in a fair fight but he is on the same level as Dranosh (who was killed by the Lich King).
Post by
Rankkor
well, let's get back to the former topic, Varian was scolding jaina because (says he) "she prevented him from killing thrall while he had the chance" when what jaina really did was save varian from being cleaved into neatly cut chunks of chin and untamable hair.
regardless of what people may say about how strong Varian is or is not, he is NO MATCH whatsoever for Varok, and Varok arrived mere seconds away after he attacked Thrall.
Against Thrall, he maybe (MAYBE) had a chance, specially since thrall is way too soft with his enemies, and would likely refuse to use his shamanism to squash varian like a flea, choosing to fight him in melee combat, so in that situation varian "maybe" had a chance to win (a rather realistic chance) but against Varok, his chances are of 0.0%
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
Eitrigg....... bro' I agree to that statement so much it's not even funny anymore T_T why did they had to sink the jaina+thrall ship? I've been looking foward to that union since Warcraft 3 dammit! >.<I'd have personally preferred them leaving it in "tease" territory forever, but ehh. What bugs me is what I've now
confirmed
as ham-handed red-stringing on the Thrall/Aggra thing.
Then again, that goes with what I've been saying all along: You pull a love interest for an established character out of nowhere, and even the very best author (and while Christie Golden is good, she's not the best) would be hard pressed to
keep
it from being ham-handed red-stringing. Believable romances need time to develop.
well, let's get back to the former topic, Varian was scolding jaina because (says he) "she prevented him from killing thrall while he had the chance" when what jaina really did was save varian from being cleaved into neatly cut chunks of chin and untamable hair.You wanna know how long I've been saying this?
Iffy as I was on this book, it pretty much demolishes the validity of any accusations of "treason" against Jaina. She's one of Varian's "handlers," as it were; he
needs
her to keep him from doing things he'd regret later. But yet, people are still bashing on her.
Post by
Rankkor
I for one (like to) think that just because Varok was coming wouldn't mean obligatory defeat on Varian's side; That because I like to think that there was actual armies in the Battle of the Undercity and individual warriors like him don't make that much of a difference unless they are spellcasters, like
Varian
and Jaina.
o_O varian a spellcaster? of what? of hairgrowth? dude varian is a warrior he doesn't have an ounce of magic in his body.
now if you meant Jaina, sylvannas and thrall now that's another thing.
also, the horde did brought an actual army to the undercity to reclaim it and clean up each sector, but Varian had only a small strike-force with him, not a full-fledged army, after all they only entered via the sewers, and went straight to the apothecarium while the horde fought in the rest of the city.
so, the alliance had both numerical disadvantage, AND less "super units" as they only had Varian, and Jaina.
I do agree that Jaina doesn't have the gift of predicting the future, she had no idea that saurfang was comming, and she mostly teleported varian out to avoid a bigger "political shitstorm" but the point remains, had varian stayed there, he would had died.
period.
his soldiers (who were few) are less than red-shirt cannon fodder for the mind-controlling powers of sylvannas, and the might of saurfang alone would had been enough to bring him down.
pff, blizz wasted a good oportunity there, I would had loved more an ending like this for that battle:
Varian attacks Thrall, Sylvannas 1shots all his soldiers, but lets Thrall fight Varian alone, Thrall who doesn't wanna trigger a new war doesn't strike back and gets injured, Varian is about to land the finishing kill blow, when saurfang arrives, both duel, Saurfang kicks varian's ass, and then Thrall stops the fight and lets jaina teleport everyone out......
an ending like that would had balanced the hit blizz did to the horde with the broken front, that REALLY left a sore taste in my mouth.
I've been saying a long time that one of the many reasons I don't respect much varian and garrosh is because both of them have never been truly defeated. And I mean TRULY defeated as in "they got their asses handed to them in a silver plate".
no leader is ever mature enough untill they've tasted the bitterness of defeat. Thrall was defeated (by mannoroth) Saurfang was defeated (by his son when he was a DK) Sylvannas was defeated too (by arthas when alive, by Kel'tuzad when undead) and so on.
but neither varian nor garrosh have ever recieved a proper beating to get their inflated egos down, and both of them NEED ONE pronto.
ohh the day I actually see either of them getting into a (canon) fight and getting completely and utterly defeated is a day worthy of being rememberd.
Post by
Adamsm
Eitrigg....... bro' I agree to that statement so much it's not even funny anymore T_T why did they had to sink the jaina+thrall ship? I've been looking foward to that union since Warcraft 3 dammit! >.<I'd have personally preferred them leaving it in "tease" territory forever, but ehh. What bugs me is what I've now
confirmed
as ham-handed red-stringing on the Thrall/Aggra thing.
Then again, that goes with what I've been saying all along: You pull a love interest for an established character out of nowhere, and even the very best author (and while Christie Golden is good, she's not the best) would be hard pressed to
keep
it from being ham-handed red-stringing. Believable romances need time to develop.
Plus again.. unless she has time skips, Golden just can't write romance....
Post by
FarseerLolotea
Plus again.. unless she has time skips, Golden just can't write romance....Well, the romance in
On Fire's Wings
(one of Golden's originals) wasn't horrible—just squicky. Then again, she had several years' worth of story to play around with there.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
That doesn't seem like a small army to me.
those remained outside, inside there weren't enough units.
it's a bit too late to check it out now (as the quest was removed) but I did both versions multiple times (on live and on the PTRs) and when you do that quest as horde, there's dozens of siege engines outside of UC, and lots of infantry.
Granted the same can be said about the alliance on their side of the sewers, but once the battle actually starts is when you can tell the diference.
because during the battle on the courtyard, there's sylvannas, thrall, and the horde army, and once the courtyard is secured, DOZENS of horde soldiers are phased in, the same when you secure the central sector, and when you head for the royal quarters, you can see groups of 10+ horde soldiers battling the many rebel forsaken forces.
on the alliance side however, outside there's a lot of people ,but inside only varian, jaina and about 10 soldiers enter, and once the worm is killed, only 3 (yep 3) alliance soldiers are phased on the sewers, then they exit the sewers and you can see (even on alliance version) A LOT of horde corpses and rebel forsaken corpses, showing just how vastly numerical was the horde army.
Varian had only a small strike force that sneaked into UC to finish putress, he didn't had a proper army.
There's not basis for this. Both versions of the Battle for the Undercity are comparable.
again I've done both versions, and the diference is noticeable, horde-side as you clear each sector, DOZENS of soldiers are phased in, but on the alliance-side, when you clear the tunnel only 3 soldiers spawn (besides the permanent +8 squad that is with varian and jaina at all times)
Thrall and sylvannas also have a permanent +8 squad with them, but as you clear sectors, you can see LOTS of extra soldiers entering and joining the battle.
Nah it wouldn't. The broken front paints a far less worse karma on the Horde than what you described.
yhea, =/ u're rite. (still, dreaming is fun isn't it? xD)
Post by
Monday
again I've done both versions, and the diference is noticeable, horde-side as you clear each sector, DOZENS of soldiers are phased in, but on the alliance-side, when you clear the tunnel only 3 soldiers spawn (besides the permanent +8 squad that is with varian and jaina at all times)
I'm not sure which version you did, but when I did the Alliance version I had at least a dozen soldiers at any given point, with more spawning all the time.
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