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10.2.5
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10.2.6
Human trinket racial nerf.
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Post by
DarkOpeth
Human players, moreso in high end arena will be forced to use the trinket like everyone else because having to wait an extra minute for a CD in arena can mean the end of your partner that they have started to burst down after having CC'd you.
Fix'd.
Yeah, like everyone else, but those other 9 races have stuff they can use, like Berserking, Bloodfury, Shaodwmeld etc, while humans are left with nothing.
What I heard was:
You must not be good at PvP. However, I am good at PvP, regardless of my playstyle. Therefore, my opinion is correct. I play as a frost deathknight.
I am at 1800. I am not good at PvP I am average. 2800+ is "good". You may have more experience, I was simply talking about my rating to suggest I am not a newbie that has not stepped into arena to see what the racial does.
I suppose the problem here is:
-3 minutes is too long for arena > humans will go for the trinket instead. This will make the racial unused, while the 9 other races have usable racials that their trinkets will not nullify.
-Keeping it at two minutes gives humans and extra, insanely scalable trinket slot, this is inherently imbalanced.
So there needs to be a solution found that: Makes the racial viable, without making humans revert to trinket, but does not give them a scalable extra slot. Hmm
Post by
335633
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
556777
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
goshadstep2lose
more strawman arguments and roundabout logicignoring the fact that I have standing arguments in this thread that no one has been able to argue against, if you would ever want to discuss PvP balance in relationship to emfh,
here
is a thread that you should familiarize yourself with
Post by
DarkOpeth
more strawman arguments and roundabout logicignoring the fact that I have standing arguments in this thread that no one has been able to argue against, if you would ever want to discuss PvP balance in relationship to emfh,
here
is a thread that you should familiarize yourself with
Yay blockquotes. Also goshad, I must say I thoroughly admire your fine collection of trophies. Keep on keepin' on.
But what do you think about the actual trinket itself? SheeoCo and I have reached a consensus that
-3 minutes is too long for arena > humans will go for the trinket instead. This will make the racial unused, while the 9 other races have usable racials that their trinkets will not nullify.
-Keeping it at two minutes gives humans and extra, insanely scalable trinket slot, this is inherently imbalanced.
So there needs to be a solution found that: Makes the racial viable, without making humans revert to trinket, but does not give them a scalable extra slot. Hmm
So as it stands: yes EMfH is was/is "op" (with very big quotation marks) in the sense that it allows much more power and customization and scales well with gear. Think of it as a PvP trinket with an extra /use effect that you pick out depending on what second trinket you equip.
The three minute cooldown nerf effectively renders it useless for mid to high end competitive arena and future rated bgs, because not having a CC breaker for an extra minute may be the deciding factor in a match (not too commonly, but it does happen), and because of this, human players will go for a PvP trinket instead which means this will become unused. (except in raids/questing where a PvP trinket isn't traditionally equipped.
So I would say the smartest thing would be to redesign it and give it a brand new effect so it is unique like the other racials but not meant as replacement for a particular item or w/e.
I know you may have some sort of argument about other things with SheeoCo, but I am asking for your opinion on this above argument I just outlined.
Post by
goshadstep2lose
So as it stands: yes EMfH is was/is "op" (with very big quotation marks) in the sense that it allows much more power and customization and scales well with gear. customization =/= op, or rather "op"
emfh isn't the only racial that scales with gear
emfh still isn't/wasn't op for the myriad of reasons that have yet been unresponsive to in this and the linked thread, most prominent among which are:
emfh is only 1/2 a trinket not a full one
every race has a racial that is arguably more powerful than any trinket in game due to the capabilities of some racials which are unavailable to trinkets
The three minute cooldown nerf effectively renders it useless for mid to high end competitive arena and future rated bgs, because not having a CC breaker for an extra minute may be the deciding factor in a match (not too commonly, but it does happen), and because of this, human players will go for a PvP trinket instead which means this will become unused. thats the bad thing about corroborating evidence-
the second you make the baseless assumption that it supports your argument without
che
cki
ng
it
out
first
is the second that it turns on you!
I know you may have some sort of argument about other things with SheeoCo, but I am asking for your opinion on this above argument I just outlined.
ignoring the fact that I have standing arguments in this thread that no one has been able to argue against, if you would ever want to discuss PvP balance in relationship to emfh,
here
is a thread that you should familiarize yourself with
Post by
DarkOpeth
Hmm. You make a good point, we will see how this all plays out once arenas are available again and the modified cooldown is in effect there.
I hadnt considered other racials being scalable but I see what you mean.
Post by
423967
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
cloudp
every race has a racial that is arguably more powerful than any trinket in game due to the capabilities of some racials which are unavailable to trinkets
However, wouldn't the reverse be true? There's no racial providing the amount of mana Solace does, of the instant heal-on-demand Bauble does, or the armor penetration <ArPen trinket> does, or the EoF stamina/shield one.
To summarize my ideas so far:
In it's 2min state, although EMFH is clearly among the best racials, it's not "overpowered" - it's simply very powerful. It doesn't dismantle the balance on itself.
In it's 3min state, EMFH has a great potential to become useless - I severely doubt Medallion's usefulness can be surpassed by another trinket in a competitive environment. However, due to everyone's lack of knowledge in Rated BGs, it's possible EMFH has it's place there even in a 3min version. Or even on Arena matches if the game mechanics and game lengths shift dramatically (I doubt it).
Post by
320076
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
DarkOpeth
every race has a racial that is arguably more powerful than any trinket in game due to the capabilities of some racials which are unavailable to trinkets
However, wouldn't the reverse be true? There's no racial providing the amount of mana Solace does, of the instant heal-on-demand Bauble does, or the
armor penetration <ArPen trinket>
What trinket is that?
Also, aren't they still debating changing racials? We don't know how things will be in Cata. It's not here yet and not patched.
As it stands, the 3 minute cooldown has already been implemented for EMfH on live servers and is active. It is much less likely and less typical for something like that to be undone once it has gone live already.
Post by
354743
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Post by
320076
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
320076
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
goshadstep2lose
However, wouldn't the reverse be true? There's no racial providing the amount of mana Solace does, of the instant heal-on-demand Bauble does, or the armor penetration <ArPen trinket> does, or the EoF stamina/shield one. the point stands, those effects are only arguably better than a few up racials
In it's 3min state, EMFH has a great potential to become useless - I severely doubt Medallion's usefulness can be surpassed by another trinket in a competitive environment. However, due to everyone's lack of knowledge in Rated BGs, it's possible EMFH has it's place there even in a 3min version. Or even on Arena matches if the game mechanics and game lengths shift dramatically (I doubt it).
thats the bad thing about corroborating evidence-
the second you make the baseless assumption that it supports your argument without
che
cki
ng
it
out
first
is the second that it turns on you!
Post by
243770
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
cloudp
(...)
From what I gather in Shad's post, and his point, would be that EMFH can only be proven superior to all other races if there was a trinket that would be more useful than each racial. As that isn't true (Escape Artist, WotF, Arcane Torrent and War Stomp have no real trinket equivalents), EMFH isn't above all others.
I can see where you're getting too. Tough I think it's a bit of an undervaluing to discount some trinket's pure throughput/regen power in some matches, which obviously aren't quite as influencing in staple moments (Full duration fear being countered by WotF with medallion on cooldown, for example), they influence the entire match inderectly, and quite effectivelly.
The other part of my post wasn't arguing, it was oppinion, Shad. I am not stating that as an absolute truth, I'm saying it's my prediction of how Cataclysm environments might pay out. They can be right or 100% wrong.
Post by
goshadstep2lose
youre linking armories of people who didn't drop below 2700 in either 3v3s or 5v5s and were all in the top 100 players worldwide during season 8 fixed
humans who use the racial and not a medallion. considering the change has been in effect for a couple of weeks, what relevance do those armories have? the fact that there is enough evidence that they are still playing and have been since the changes in question
the emfh change has not been applied to arena, because there was no arena season active when the change was implemented. good thing you can only pvp during an arena season
linking armories to people with glad titles who are human and use the racial does what exactly?well for people who understood the links, it disproves the claim that emfh doesnt serve a purpose in top end PvP
i assuming you have enough of a brain to know that just because I haven't instantaneously made a topic in another forum regarding this, that it doesn't mean I won't. unfortunately i'm not on here 24/7. expect to see the topic early this week, as long as they allow it.still waiting on this btw
I can see where you're getting too. Tough I think it's a bit of an undervaluing to discount some trinket's pure throughput/regen power in some matches just because I wont say something is OP doesnt mean I am undervaluing it
emfh is just another one of those interesting, not-so-simple, game mechanics that trick stupid players into thinking their jealousy is grounds for imba claims
Post by
243770
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
goshadstep2lose
um, i think that the majority of people have been arguing that emfh was op you losing yourself again, please pay attention
that people race changed for it, etc.
here
is a thread that you should familiarize yourself with
and even if some people were aruging that emfh doesnt serve a purpose in top end pvp, linking the armories of a couple of players that use emfh and are high rated is pretty weak. unless that claim was that no-one used emfh in top end pvp. then the point would stand. The three minute cooldown nerf effectively renders it useless for mid to high end competitive arena and future rated bgs... human players will go for a PvP trinket instead which means this will become unused.you losing yourself again, please pay attention
also, any real pvp discussion implies the highest form of pvp. in our case thats arena. in cata that may change, and as some have said, we dont know what effect it will have. yes we do, the dynamics of rated BGs aren't so mysterious that players who understand PvP can't make educated projections about them
if you or anyone making the baseless insinuations that the cooldown of the medallion will become more important in
larger scale
fights Id love to see some support, until then us intelligent players will go on understanding that controlling the battle and coordinating dps will be far more important that controlling individual characters
CC while always important in PvP, becomes less effective and therefore less important, as the size of the battle increases
but just because some extremely elite players are still bging without the medallion doesnt mean anything, lol. except that extremely elite players won't be dropping their double PvE trinkets for a medallion
you know- the point I was responding to?
thank you for the couple of comments you made that showed you misunderstood my comments and intent and then took them out of context. oh jesus, not this one
again
please sir! enlighten us!
when i get a good chunk of time, ill get it all wrapped up for you.Ill believe it when I see it
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