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[Balance - PvE] Moonkin Guide Discussion Thread.
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Post by
340332
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Joim
I'm still in doubt if GoSF or GoSS is better for dps, given MF+SF is a must.
Post by
curlymon
Les the GoSF runs into issues when you have haste high enough that you end up clipping MF with SunF as you enter Solar. That's where the math for GoSS, GoIS, GoMF being better is from.
Post by
340332
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
curlymon
Les the GoSF runs into issues when you have haste high enough that you end up clipping MF with SunF as you enter Solar. That's where the math for GoSS, GoIS, GoMF being better is from.
hmm... that would have to be a pretty hefty amount of haste! Ive got ~1150 haste and im not down to the sub 1.8 second SF cast it would need in order for that to happen regularly with a euphoria proc. (although to be fair Ive not been in a propperly buffed raid situation yet to actually pass judgement) My thinking is that even with the euphoria proc reducing the time from lunar to solar considerably, the use of Starsurge increases it back in the dots favour. Is there a figure as to at what amount of haste GoSS becomes better than GoSF?
GoSS should always be in your glyphs.
GoIS as well.
GoW, GoSF, GoMF are the 3 in question for that last spot.
17.9k dps on Saurfang norm tonight, borked the rotation a few times and only tossed out treants once, but it's got room for improvement. :P
Post by
Joim
GoW is not as good imho. GoSF should go with GoMF, so you have MF rolling until SF and the chance to proc shooting stars, which in turn, with GoSS, make you get starfall earlier for your lunar eclipse...
I was doing 18k dps in H Marrowgar breaking the bones. I still have to test my dps in H Saurfang... xD
Post by
curlymon
GoW is not as good imho. GoSF should go with GoMF, so you have MF rolling until SF and the chance to proc shooting stars, which in turn, with GoSS, make you get starfall earlier for your lunar eclipse...
GoSS
GoIS
GoMF
These are going to be my choice until the math proves otherwise :P
I was doing 18k dps in H Marrowgar breaking the bones. I still have to test my dps in H Saurfang... xD
Didn't get to dps him tonight but i did happliy tank him doing 30k tps... a bear with 17.6k AP is a bit OP...
Post by
579877
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Joim
I'm using int, int/haste or int/spirit (to play with both hit rating and some regen) gems. As for reforging:
Add hit/spirit until hit capped, then:
haste, crit: crit to mastery
crit: crit to haste
too much hit, crit: hit to haste
too much hit, haste: hit to mastery
Post by
404185
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Post by
Falkor
with loss of crit importance and no soft cap for lunar...would it be worth dropping to 2pc t10 if there are suitable offset pieces? languish is barely staying up for me and went from 4-5% of my dps down to 1.5-2%, and that's just on a target dummy with no movement, in a raid requiring movement languish would have even less up time for me. (current stats 574 haste, 944 crit, 15 mastery)
Post by
404185
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Post by
marchemalheur
Solar beam actually seems to be pretty decent in instances/raids, it stops most incoming damage from caster mobs, makes it easier on the tanks/healers.
Post by
340332
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Falkor
sunfire morphing takes a split second after the last starfire/starsurge for the spell to do damage, then register the SP gained, and kick over. but i wouldnt cast IS first in that case, because you might be applying pre-eclipse IS and have no way of knowing. thats why i always wait for sunfire to morph, then cast SuF, then IS...just to be absolutely sure both DoTs are buffed by eclipse. takes .5sec or less, but better than wasting time recasting one or both dots imo.
also i have not noticed gaining solar power from either MF or sunfire...but i'll keep an eye out.
and any thoughts on dropping 4pc t10, or does everyone here have really high crit. because as i said before, languish is only doing 1.5-2% of total damage now, over 8-10min dummy tests. are there better pieces to wear as offset that we've been skipping over to keep our bonus?
Post by
Joim
and some regen
You don't get spirit regen in combat unless you're a healer, even if you stop casting.
wow, didn't know.
I still have 40% crit raid buffed, and with 40k crit starfires, languish seems good...
Still testing with glyphs though.
Edit:
How to AoE:
* Reach solar eclipse
* Hurricane with nature damage bonus, with eclipse not fading.
* Profit!
Post by
curlymon
Hey, you got belled.
Woot :P
First thing I'll note is with this build I DPSed for almost 10 minutes straight last night on that dummy and only started seeing "Mana Low" towards the end. The only buff I had up was Mark of the Wild, and this was without popping Thorns or Treants. Would it be worthwhile to drop 2 points from Moonglow to get 3/3 Owlkin Frenzy? I can't see anywhere else on the Balance tree where I could feasibly put those points and get any kind of DPS boost.
Second, regarding the rotation, should I be refreshing IS and MF/SF immediately when I proc Solar/Lunar Eclipse? I know the old mentality was to let IS and MF drop off before re-applying, but what I'm reading so far seems to indicate that doing so now would actually be less DPS.
Third, and kind of pursuant to the DoT question, is regarding my glyphs. Should I swap Starfire for Starsurge? I'm guessing if I'm re-applying MF/SF at every Eclipse proc then it doesn't make sense to have Starfire extending the DoT duration anymore. Are there any other glyphs I should swap in? I had a hard time finding many Major glyphs that seemed relevant to DPS aside from Starfall and Thorns and I'm still not sure where Thorns fits into any rotation if at all.
Finally, regarding reforging and gemming. I reforged all my gear save one trinket to gain Mastery and got enough Mastery to buff Eclipse by 25%. I still need to re-gem, however. Do any Mastery gems exist in game yet, and if so should I be gemming for Mastery or should I go for Haste and/or Int?.
Moonglow is not needed. I did 7.5 mil on the target dummy with only MoW and innervates. In raid I never got close to going oom on any fight and never needed innervate for myself.
There are no solid numbers on Owlkin Frenzy as of yet but I do feel like it is up more often now while raiding. It DOES provide a boost though and the points are not really needed elsewhere for dps so might as well place them there.
As for DoTs, you only want to cast them at the beginning on eclipse. Don't bother refreshing any other time, you will be most of the way to the next eclipse by the time they fall off and DoTs are great damage but ONLY if they run their full course. clipping or refreshing is a bad use of a GCD.
Mastery gems appear at lvl 81 so nope not yet.
Geming section would be good for the guide, I will add that in when I get the chance. :P
I'm using int, int/haste or int/spirit (to play with both hit rating and some regen) gems. As for reforging:
Add hit/spirit until hit capped, then:
haste, crit: crit to mastery
crit: crit to haste
too much hit, crit: hit to haste
too much hit, haste: hit to mastery
That is essentially what I have posted in the guide, however I need to add the bit with crit to haste and and lay things out a bit cleaner. I'll take any suggestions.sunfire morphing takes a split second after the last starfire/starsurge for the spell to do damage, then register the SP gained, and kick over. but i wouldnt cast IS first in that case, because you might be applying pre-eclipse IS and have no way of knowing. thats why i always wait for sunfire to morph, then cast SuF, then IS...just to be absolutely sure both DoTs are buffed by eclipse. takes .5sec or less, but better than wasting time recasting one or both dots imo.
also i have not noticed gaining solar power from either MF or sunfire...but i'll keep an eye out.
and any thoughts on dropping 4pc t10, or does everyone here have really high crit. because as i said before, languish is only doing 1.5-2% of total damage now, over 8-10min dummy tests. are there better pieces to wear as offset that we've been skipping over to keep our bonus?
Languish numbers have dropped due to SF and W become cast less in comparison to other spells. You can't really stack it up if you keep swapping out to SS or the other spells at the beginning of each eclipse. All that said it is still a 1.6-2% boost over normal DPS and that's more then a raw stats gain will give you. The 2 piece bonus is still a hefty boost to dps. 4t10 is still strong.
Solar beam actually seems to be pretty decent in instances/raids, it stops most incoming damage from caster mobs, makes it easier on the tanks/healers.
Other then assisting with trash pulls it really does not have much use in the current set of raids. This is more of a personal preference talent.So Ive been messing around with the rotation a little and theres been a few things thatve cropped up. First, it seems that Moonfire now has a chance to increase solar power. This is a total pain in the a$$ as it seems to only happen off ticks and often snipes your last Starfire cast, which you wouldnt have had to cast had you have been able to predict the increase.
My second observation is that Moonfire doesnt morph into Sunfire instantly as soon as you proc Solar Eclipse. The majority of the time when casting Moonfire directly after the last Starfire it hits as Moonfire and not Sunfire, as doesnt get the benefit of the Solar Eclipse. This made me wonder if casting IS first during Solar Eclipse might be a viable option. When I tried it out I didnt really see much of a change apart from that Sunfire did lot more damage and had a much higher count than previously.
In nearly every test I did, regardless of glyphs or rotation my top spells were:
Starfire
Insect Swarm
Wrath
Starfall
Starsurge
followed by Moonfire/Sunfire/Languish dots and their respective direct damages.
Even with GoMF, Moonfire doesnt do anywhere near the damage of IS, (for me IS is about 20-22% of my damage and Moonfire about 8 - 10%), so tomorrow Im going to try out GoWrath to see if its more of a viable dps increase. GoSF carries the dot more or less perfectly up to proccing Solar Eclipse at my level of haste (1137) but as Curly quite rightly pointed out, in a buffed environment and with regular Shooting Stars procs, you would end up cutting off your dot far too often.
GoSS is nearly perfect in the extra cooldown reduction it offers Starfall, and is easily as strong as everyone is making out imo, and I wouldnt worry about casting it at any point during Lunar Eclipse given that it wasnt available at the start of the proc.
Balance Power Tracker
is an indespensible addon imo and is loads better than the default ui.
Les that jumpy bit you are seeing with Moonfire is not actually Moonfire. Balance Power Tracker is by default set to apply the power that would be gain by the current cast. allowing you to more easily see that the SF you are still casting would cause solar to proc allowing oyu to more easily see that you will have a Solar eclipse.
MF not morphing into SuF is a bit annoying but I am convinced that waiting a half second is the best way to approach it.
My annoyances include waiting for Wrath or SS to land before the energy is given to us, which forces us to wait or cast an extra wrath before Lunar and in the case of SS both Solar and Lunar get pushed back the length of travel time:(
Shooting Star's Procs ROCK! except when you are in the middle of casting a SS and it procs... the proc is consumed and you still had to finish the cast time :(
GoW just does not really give me a significant DPS increase like I'd want it to. GoMF just feels better to me. Still waiting on math for these all told to be fair though.
I need to add the Balance power Tracker to the guide too...
Post by
340332
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Falkor
and any thoughts on dropping 4pc t10, or does everyone here have really high crit. because as i said before, languish is only doing 1.5-2% of total damage now, over 8-10min dummy tests. are there better pieces to wear as offset that we've been skipping over to keep our bonus?
Languish numbers have dropped due to SF and W become cast less in comparison to other spells. You can't really stack it up if you keep swapping out to SS or the other spells at the beginning of each eclipse. All that said it is still a 1.6-2% boost over normal DPS and that's more then a raw stats gain will give you. The 2 piece bonus is still a hefty boost to dps. 4t10 is still strong.
sweet thx for the feed back
MF not morphing into SuF is a bit annoying but I am convinced that waiting a half second is the best way to approach it.
yea figured that, annoying for sure but we still got a nice buff overall
Shooting Star's Procs ROCK! except when you are in the middle of casting a SS and it procs... the proc is consumed and you still had to finish the cast time :(
my thoughts exactly....sooo annoying to start casting starsurge, or almost finish the cast and have starsurge consume it and start the CD over -_-
p.s. tried that eclipse addon, wasnt really feeling; it tbh i like the stock ui /shrug, but a good find for other people nonetheless
Post by
curlymon
As for Languish, I'm not sure where there are significant leather upgrades worth dropping it for unless you are going straight from 251 set gear to 277 off-set in which case you should easily be able to get higher lvl set gear anyway.
This is a good point. I'm not sure if the raw stats would be equivalent to the 4t10 bonus but either way you look at, it will be close.
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