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Gearscore haters unite!
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Post by
Pwntiff
That's my opinion as well, Poremm. My exact quote is on my profile page. :P
Cannot be done.
Paragon managed to kill heroic LK25 with zero buff, using the same gear all heroic ICC farming guilds have available. With this same gear, many guilds still cannot complete ToGC25 or Algalon-25 even though those were done in 226/232 gear.
Go look at WMOs of top guilds with the same gear as everyone else. Their performance is orders of magnitude better. These raiders put out more DPS in 232 than anyone you raid with does in 264/277.
Gear does not establish a benchmark for performance because very nearly no one uses the full potential of their gear.
I never said that gear is a benchmark for performance. I said that gear is a measure of potential. Sure, a player in 187s might out-DPS a player in 264s, but the player in 264s has the potential to severely out-DPS the one in 187s. And if the only information I have to go on is 187s or 264s, I'm taking the one in 264s. This is not different than GearScore.
And for the love of the Light, don't compare top-tier raiding guilds to PuGs. Guilds have the luxury of being able to wipe multiple times on a boss while figuring out what everyone is doing wrong. Nine times out of ten, you'd be lucky to get 80% of a PuG to return from a stalled, but otherwise successful, partial clear.
Post by
160546
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Pwntiff
That you did. But I said it before it was in your sig. >.>
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
That you did. But I said it before it was in your sig. >.>
BUT THE ETERNAL FORM OF IT EXISTED BEFORE YOU SAID IT!
=D
Post by
664246
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rilgon
Raid leaders still checked people's gear. It just took longer.
Right, but people who weren't idiots wouldn't deny an otherwise capable candidate because they had higher DPS-granting gear that was lower item level (DMC:Greatness and Hunter T9 say hi from this expansion, at the least). They'd also usually understand that good trinkets are a complete pain in the ^&*! to come by, and usually ignore those as long as they were valid to your class/role.
Gearscore apologists/users would, and that is why Gearscore is stupid.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Right, but people who weren't idiots wouldn't deny an otherwise capable candidate because they had higher DPS-granting gear that was lower item level (DMC:Greatness and Hunter T9 say hi from this expansion, at the least). They'd also usually understand that good trinkets are a complete pain in the ^&*! to come by, and usually ignore those as long as they were valid to your class/role.
Gearscore apologists/users would, and that is why Gearscore is stupid.
Special Case Fallacy
Post by
146856
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Kalisha
Right, but people who weren't idiots wouldn't deny an otherwise capable candidate because they had higher DPS-granting gear that was lower item level (DMC:Greatness and Hunter T9 say hi from this expansion, at the least).
Really? Are you playing the same game I am? People were stupid then. People are stupid now. The elitists are still elitist. The "I have no gear" crowd is still bemoaning its lack of gear. Things haven't changed a whole heck of a lot.
You don't often run into the raid leaders that know the intricacies of every single class. In the day of visible ilevels on gear, we have an addon that can spit out an arbitrary number to judge how well geared a player is. In BC, there were other arbitrary numbers to judge people by (+spell power, +healing, +hit, etc). Before that people simply looked to see if you were in tier gear/what raid your gear was from/if you had all your resist gear (and that was much more problematic with the terrible itemization then, than it is now).
There has never been a point in the history of this game (except perhaps when we were all zoning in Onyxia/Molten Core for the first time and didn't know enough to judge) when one group of players has not judged another group of players unfairly. Getting rid of gearscore will not suddenly erase that entire history. The vast majority of anti-gearscore people seem to think that this is a new phenomenon and they'll suddenly be free to join any raid they like if it goes away. They are very, very wrong.
Post by
lonewarrior
First off comparing Vanilla/BC to the current situation in WotLK is apples to oranges.
In BC getting to a certain gear level to do a raid required a degree of success from prior raids.
There was no way a person was getting into BT without success and the gear from the lower raids so anyone who did show up and qualify was already a known quantity.
Wrath gearing has become so cheapen lately that anyone can gear up to raiding level with almost no true raid success outside of being carried. Unknown quantities.
GS is what it is..sort of like using a life line in "Who wants to be Millionaire" you can use it as an edge to help you guess right, but you can just as easily guess wrong.
Post by
Kalisha
First off comparing Vanilla/BC to the current situation in WotLK is apples to oranges.
In BC getting to a certain gear level to do a raid required a degree of success from prior raids.
There was no way a person was getting into BT without success and the gear from the lower raids so anyone who did show up and qualify was already a known quantity.
So your argument is that prior to Wrath, judging a player based solely on their gear was more acceptable than it is now? Because let me tell you, carrying terrible players through raids isn't exactly a new and original concept either. 40 man raids were the absolute epitome of this and there were still an astounding number of them floating around in BC.
Gear was no more an indicator of skill then than it is now. Pugs were still requiring people that far outgeared the instance before letting them join. Am I the only one that remembers all of the drama in Kara as BC was winding down, with the "I need the gear" vs "we're just farming badges and want a quick run" wars?
Gearscore isn't the problem. People would still be getting rejected whether or not the addon (or visible ilevels on gear) existed.
Ultimately it's up to you to make your own fun in the game - at some point you've got to stop pointing fingers and figure out what
you're
doing wrong to be excluded. I've heard all about how it's "impossible" to get geared up enough to be accepted to raids these days and there's no point even trying, and yet new people are doing it every day. Does not compute.
Post by
78077
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Reallyape
Only noobs or people who don't know their class hate GS LOL.
My shammy alt is sitting at 5.4 to 5.5k GS and I have no issue getting into raids.
Getting 5k+ GS is a cake walk in the park. Why should other's carry your low dps, low heals or even bad tank character into Raids when you are too lazy to earn your gear (btw getting gear these days is so easy).
Do your dailies, weeklys and VoA everyweek and you will have 5k+ GS in a month so so.
Yes I am one of those %^&*!@# who laugh at dps who does less dps/over all damage than the tank and I make sure everyone in raids is aware of it.
GS addon is just another way to see if you actually even try to gear your character. Before GS addon the RL have to manuall inspect you to see what gear you have. GS just make is easier to inspect you.
Even in BC or Pre BC Rl will still inspect to see what gear you have.
Stop complaining. If you can't handle being call out coz your GS sucks then quit WoW
Comfortably the worst post I've ever seen on WoWHead.
No @#$%ing way, there's #$%^loads worse.
Post by
549652
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Agoraphobic
Only noobs or people who don't know their class hate GS LOL.
My shammy alt is sitting at 5.4 to 5.5k GS and I have no issue getting into raids.
Getting 5k+ GS is a cake walk in the park. Why should other's carry your low dps, low heals or even bad tank character into Raids when you are too lazy to earn your gear (btw getting gear these days is so easy).
Do your dailies, weeklys and VoA everyweek and you will have 5k+ GS in a month so so.
Yes I am one of those %^&*!@# who laugh at dps who does less dps/over all damage than the tank and I make sure everyone in raids is aware of it.
GS addon is just another way to see if you actually even try to gear your character. Before GS addon the RL have to manuall inspect you to see what gear you have. GS just make is easier to inspect you.
Even in BC or Pre BC Rl will still inspect to see what gear you have.
Stop complaining. If you can't handle being call out coz your GS sucks then quit WoW
Comfortably the worst post I've ever seen on WoWHead.
I'd say it's definitely the most ignorant, thoughtless and overall negatively criticizing post on these forums. I dunno about worst though.
Post by
292516
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Bawkxy
Only noobs or people who don't know their class hate GS LOL.
My shammy alt is sitting at 5.4 to 5.5k GS and I have no issue getting into raids.
Getting 5k+ GS is a cake walk in the park. Why should other's carry your low dps, low heals or even bad tank character into Raids when you are too lazy to earn your gear (btw getting gear these days is so easy).
Do your dailies, weeklys and VoA everyweek and you will have 5k+ GS in a month so so.
Yes I am one of those %^&*!@# who laugh at dps who does less dps/over all damage than the tank and I make sure everyone in raids is aware of it.
GS addon is just another way to see if you actually even try to gear your character. Before GS addon the RL have to manuall inspect you to see what gear you have. GS just make is easier to inspect you.
Even in BC or Pre BC Rl will still inspect to see what gear you have.
Stop complaining. If you can't handle being call out coz your GS sucks then quit WoW
Comfortably the worst post I've ever seen on WoWHead.
No @#$%ing way, there's #$%^loads worse.
Yeah, remember Aestu's "QQ about the dark phoenix, i'm not going to play cata now" thread?
After a series of edits correcting my own early morning stupidity, let me quote myself from every other gearscore thread:
The only people who hate the tool are those who are excluded by its existence.
That ignorant moron everyone keeps quoting above is, I hate to admit it, correct. To an extent.
You shouldn't go quitting WoW if your Gearscore is low, but honestly, we have always had gear measures. It's now consolidated into a useful tool.
If some idiot is asking for 6,000 GS for an Ulduar run then you probably wouldn't even want to join such an incompetent fool. But if someone is denying you entrance into an ICC25 run because you only have 4k GS, I completely understand that.
There is a reason the Lich King hasn't been downed by skillful players wearing full greens.Gear matters. Gear vs Skill is like nature vs nurture. The only people who are right in the argument are those who claim both are important. Perhaps not equally, but we will never know.
I hate to quote a video game like Call of Duty, because I sound so nerdy (although I am very nerdy), but
"Sure it matters whose got the biggest stick. But it matters a helluva lot more who's swinging it." I won't say your gearscore determines your skill, or that it can replace skill, only that there is some degree of correlation between skill and gearscore, and that gearscore is a useful measure of a person's average experience in raiding (i.e. a 6100 GS player has obviously raided ICC a lot).
Feel free to eat me alive, but we all know it's the truth.
This.
Post by
chowderman
....* Gearscore tells me if someones missing gems or enchants. One ore two isn't a problem, but if someone has over 3 missing sockets and 3 missing enchants, I'm not taking them to ICC. Naxx? No problem.
* Gearscore also tells me if they're under hit-cap, and by how much(you also have to look at their talents for this)
* Gearscore tells me other things: +spell pow, defense rating(if they're def-capped), how much resilience is on the gear, etc and so on.
The above things alone are worth the price of a little bit of lag in Dal. Not having to wade through 14 slots just to find out that this amazingly geared fire-mage is 4% under hit-cap? Priceless.
Yes, player skill is more important than player gear; the add-on itself says this. But it's a tool for PUGS. If I knew most of these people, I wouldn't be pugging.
Actually it is this right here is how GearScore is intended to be used. Not the stupid number, the number tells you absolutely nothing, and those who rely on only that number are poop-chicken-licking numbskulls. Seems none of them have the ability to type "/gs" into chat.
(Side-note: that geared mage you mentioned, may be only a raiding mage and have -4% hit so he can gem/enchant other things, because the raid he would commonly join has a draenei with a shadow priest/boomkin in it. Its pretty standard to have that kind of setup if your raid has the supporting classes. Although the drawback is if you are missing those things your damage is significantly lowered.)
Post by
549652
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Agoraphobic
The only people who hate the tool are those who are excluded by its existence.
Untrue. Alts, people that get unlucky rolls and people that are a year behind on leveling hate gear score on my server specifically. Requiring 5.5k gear score to do ToGC10 is ridiculous (I have the achievement on my boomkin from last November sitting around 4.5k GS, Regenerates on Frostmane if you don't believe me.)
I have not played the character in almost that long, logged on maybe twice since and now that the account has been compromised sometime within the last year, I had to make a new one.
I don't think it's fair that people who've done the raids, quit for awhile and come back are now considered incompetent because of a number. But hey, maybe it's just me.
Edit: Boomkin GS was actually lower than I thought, lol
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