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Gearscore haters unite!
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Post by
Agoraphobic
The fact that there are a multitude of examples of net GS gains negatively impacting performance is directly related to that. A DPSer whose DPS is lower than expected because of equipping bad gear with high item level is directly related to the quality of your runs. Turning away players with quality gear that boosts their DPS but is low item level (and thusly low gearscore) harms the potential of your raids, as you are so focused on an arbitrary summing of item levels to actually evaluate gearing (not to mention gemming, enchanting, proper talent builds, etc).
In short, it's entirely relevant and you're backpedaling harder than a career politician.
Not only did you beat me to it, but you explained it better than I could've.
Also, lol@people that think they know everything. Where you go to school, what classes you take mean absolutely nothing if you don't utilize your brain. For example, people who use GS.
Post by
44284
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Agoraphobic
Anyways, I'd love to continue to point out your fallacies all day, but I need to eat lunch then get some work done.
ie. I'm wrong and I can't admit it, so I'll be leaving now.
Post by
Rilgon
The issue in question, as you phrase it, is "enforcing minimum GS standards will improve the quality of my runs".
The fact that there are a multitude of examples of net GS gains negatively impacting performance is directly related to that. A DPSer whose DPS is lower than expected because of equipping bad gear with high item level is directly related to the quality of your runs. Turning away players with quality gear that boosts their DPS but is low item level (and thusly low gearscore) harms the potential of your raids, as you are so focused on an arbitrary summing of item levels to actually evaluate gearing (not to mention gemming, enchanting, proper talent builds, etc).
In short, it's entirely relevant and you're backpedaling harder than a career politician.
You're using individual cases to disprove a general statement.
It's like me saying that running once a day improves your health, and you countering that by saying you know 3 guys that went out running and all collapsed of heat stroke, therefore running once a day does not improve your health.
No, more accurately, it's like me saying "While running may be good for your health, you also need to be aware of WHEN you go running and make sure that you're not doing something that may harm your short-term health for a long-term gain."
Or, more accurately, every case is unique, and attempting to apply a generalization to something as arbitrary as Gearscore is a fallacy in and of itself.
Post by
xaratherus
Also, lol@people that think they know everything. Where you go to school, what classes you take mean absolutely nothing if you don't utilize your brain. For example, people who use GS.
And people who use ad hominems.
By this point,
thanks to this thread alone
, Justin Bieber has become a more prolific artist than Elvis and the Beatles combined.
Post by
Rilgon
Anyone ever see the Louis C.K. skit "Why?" If not, Youtube it. This discussion is spiraling towards that one very quickly.
P.S. My friend has a main hunter, with ~5k gear score. He has won rolls on pieces of cloth, leather and useless mail for him that he wears when someone does a GS check. It puts him around 5.5k, thus "allowing" him to raid, even though he puts his other gear back on and does as much dps as the guy in 6k crap.
Flawed system is flawed.
BUT BUT THE NUMBER IS THE ALL-ENCOMPASSING BAROMETER OF YOUR SKILL, THE GUY WHO MADE IT SAYS SO
None of us have said that.
O rly?
Post by
Agoraphobic
Also, lol@people that think they know everything. Where you go to school, what classes you take mean absolutely nothing if you don't utilize your brain. For example, people who use GS.
And people who use ad hominems.
It's completely relevant. Do I need to break it down for you?
Post by
xaratherus
Also, lol@people that think they know everything. Where you go to school, what classes you take mean absolutely nothing if you don't utilize your brain. For example, people who use GS.
And people who use ad hominems.
It's completely relevant. Do I need to break it down for you?
Relevance does not remove the fact that you're using an intentional 'to the man' attack. You're attacking the intelligence of people who use Gearscore to further your argument, which is a fallacy
unless
you've shown that your assertion draws inevitably from your stated cause - that Gearscore is only used by people with low intelligence - which you haven't done.
Post by
Agoraphobic
Also, lol@people that think they know everything. Where you go to school, what classes you take mean absolutely nothing if you don't utilize your brain. For example, people who use GS.
And people who use ad hominems.
It's completely relevant. Do I need to break it down for you?
Relevance does not remove the fact that you're using an intentional 'to the man' attack. You're attacking the intelligence of people who use Gearscore to further your argument, which is a fallacy.
I'm actually attacking the way it's used (ie. I use gear score/private schooling to determine if someone's good enough/to say that I'm more intelligent.)
I'm sure there are more than enough people on here that will outright attack people. I was actually just laughing at the fact that people think they're better just because of the resources available to them.
Post by
xaratherus
I'm actually attacking the way it's used (ie. I use gear score/private schooling to determine if someone's good enough/to say that I'm more intelligent.)
I'm sure there are more than enough people on here that will outright attack people. I was actually just laughing at the fact that people think they're better just because of the resources available to them.
So in order to prove you point, you use the converse of the idea that you're ridiculing, which is itself just as flawed?
You're using it as a method to judge that people who use it are of lower intelligence. The Gearscore user says, "This score says you aren't good enough." You're saying, "You use Gearscore, which makes you not good enough."
Post by
Agoraphobic
I'm actually attacking the way it's used (ie. I use gear score/private schooling to determine if someone's good enough/to say that I'm more intelligent.)
I'm sure there are more than enough people on here that will outright attack people. I was actually just laughing at the fact that people think they're better just because of the resources available to them.
So in order to prove you point, you use the converse of the idea that you're ridiculing, which is itself just as flawed?
You're using it as a method to judge that people who use it are of lower intelligence. The Gearscore user says, "This score says you aren't good enough." You're saying, "You use Gearscore, which makes you not good enough."
No, I'm saying that just because you have the resources available doesn't make you better. Obviously. Which is exactly what I typed.
Post by
44284
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
lonewarrior
I think you misinterpreted what I said....
prior to Wrath if someone came looking to pug into a raid(i.e. Black Temple) a look at that persons gear would immediately tell you if they had a degree of success or not raiding, since the only way back then to acquire enough gear was through the lower raids.
I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree. Having gear from a previous raid has never been an indicator of whether or not the person put in the work to get said gear. People have been getting carried through raids for as long as we've been raiding, that's just the nature of the beast. You could spend 90% of the fight face down at the boss's feet, or auto-following a healer, and still collect the loot at the end. Just because people have zoned into the instance does not mean they understand any of the mechanics or are in any way capable.
Anyway, I think we're getting off on a tangent. The point I was trying to make is that people were judged before Gearscore was even a twinkle in its author's eye. Sometimes it was a fair assessment, many times not. Even if the addon disappeared completely today, people would still be judged and summarily rejected from raids, no matter how deserving they may think they are.
I'm not even weighing in on whether Gearscore is good or bad. I just don't think it's the problem that many think it is - all it does is give a face to something that has been there all along.
But if your not going use an unknown players gear to make an evaluation..what are you going to use then. Are we going to have in game sit down talk sessions now.
Like a job application..it can look all good on paper and you still end up with a real loser..but do we stop using them as a personnel evaluation because that can happen.
As for someone laying down for fights and still acquiring gear,especially during the BC phase...
seriously..how many players do you really know who were able to make serious raid progression in this fashion. A raiding guild wouldn't carry such dead weight and pugs rarely went the distance unless players were very good...so your example is flawed.
Post by
Agoraphobic
I think you misinterpreted what I said....
prior to Wrath if someone came looking to pug into a raid(i.e. Black Temple) a look at that persons gear would immediately tell you if they had a degree of success or not raiding, since the only way back then to acquire enough gear was through the lower raids.
I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree. Having gear from a previous raid has never been an indicator of whether or not the person put in the work to get said gear. People have been getting carried through raids for as long as we've been raiding, that's just the nature of the beast. You could spend 90% of the fight face down at the boss's feet, or auto-following a healer, and still collect the loot at the end. Just because people have zoned into the instance does not mean they understand any of the mechanics or are in any way capable.
Anyway, I think we're getting off on a tangent. The point I was trying to make is that people were judged before Gearscore was even a twinkle in its author's eye. Sometimes it was a fair assessment, many times not. Even if the addon disappeared completely today, people would still be judged and summarily rejected from raids, no matter how deserving they may think they are.
I'm not even weighing in on whether Gearscore is good or bad. I just don't think it's the problem that many think it is - all it does is give a face to something that has been there all along.
But if your not going use an unknown players gear to make an evaluation..what are you going to use then. Are we going to have in game sit down talk sessions now.
Like a job application..it can look all good on paper and you still end up with a real loser..but do we stop using them as a personnel evaluation because that can happen.
As for someone laying down for fights and still acquiring gear,especially during the BC phase...
seriously..how many players do you really know who were able to make serious raid progression in this fashion. A raiding guild wouldn't carry such dead weight and pugs rarely went the distance unless players were very good...so your example is flawed.
Back before everyone became an elitist prig with the best gear possible, we had trial runs. Simple 5 mans, or group quests. If they performed well, they were brought on raids. Now no one seems to have time to test people out, but I guarantee runs would be smoother if they did.
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
560264
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
xaratherus
You're using it as a method to judge that people who use it are of lower intelligence. The Gearscore user says, "This score says you aren't good enough." You're saying, "You use Gearscore, which makes you not good enough."
That's my argument as well and it's a valid one. Skilled players understand the futility of the mod.
It's not proven valid until you show that there are
no
skilled players out there using Gearscore. Or at the very least, that you show that a representative sample do not use it.
That's one of the key differences between 'fact' and 'opinion'.
In addition, 'skilled' is a subjective term. I know people that I would consider skilled that use Gearscore. They have many of the ICC 25-man heroic achievements, and they use Gearscore. Granted, they do not use it as their sole judge of someone's ability - but according to you, that automatically makes them unskilled or 'bad'.
Which is perfectly logical and valid. If this wasn't the case, it wouldn't be possible to do experiments or test scientific principles against individual examples.
Science does not deal in absolutes. If you find a scientist who claims that the results of his experiment prove something to be universally true, then you've found a bad scientist.
Post by
TheReal
Wow, WTF? This thread was at a slow 5 pages when I went to bed...
Anyhow, I use a nail gun. Others use a hammer. We both get the job done.
His opinion is wrong.
Since when can opinions be wrong?
Post by
Agoraphobic
Since when can opinions be wrong?
"My opinion is that the sky is green."?
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