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Christian Church Qur'an Burning
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Post by
Adamsm
Ok, so I don't condone the actions of the idiot Pastor who is extreme, I just don/9/'t think he should be compared to terrorists, or those that would build a mosque next to the 9/11 site. I think the two are completely different.Well at least we both agree about him... but that is why he is/was burning the Islamic Bible; in protest of the Center. As how he could be compared to a terrorist; the ones who flew those planes into the Towers did so under the urging of the higher ups, other fanatics who were in places of power... which the Pastor is; if he found the right group, it could be a simple matter of going from burning a book to burning a mosque, it's happened before in the name of religion, it will happen again.
And I'm going to put these two together:
I disagree with your suggestion that the origional intentions were good, or even if they were that that should be a justification for the continueing of those actions.
I'm just suggesting that muslims who want to build an islamic center next to the deathbeds of people killed by islamic extremeists, should rethink their motives, and if this is really going to "mend the broken fences that exist between the Muslim communities of America "Except they are American Muslims, who had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks; they just wanted a place where they could go and be with those who thought as they do, believed as they do.... and feel the pain of those who were lost in the Towers, same as anyone else. I mean, all jokes and 'carefree' comments aside, the last few years have been hell on an entire racial group of people in the country, and most of them were born there, or had nothing to do with the attacks; but because they were the wrong skin colour/believed the wrong 'ideals/belief' it was okay for them to be persecuted against.
And as DoctorLore pointed out; there are several mosques already in place around Ground Zero and have been there for a long time; I'm sure if you look up the recent histories of them, you'll find lots of graffiti, vandalism and other things done to them out of hate, fear, and ignorance.
I disagree that other travesties in third world countries somehow make this a norm, or somehow imply that it makes this ok.And that's your right, but it is a similar thing; lots of religions do it, whether it bothers the 'original' people there or not.
And, lastly, I never said all muslims were terrorist.Then I apologize for saying otherwise, just said that a comment like that was a little.... off colour, wasn't meant as an insult or an attempt to start an argument.
And my last comment was actually about how I handled myself against that group who wanted me broken and bleeding on the ground, not about our discussion here MyTie, sorry if you read it that way.
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204878
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557539
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Post by
MyTie
Counter my ideals with logic or keep your opinions to yourself.
I did, you dismissed it as 'flailing' without addressing any of the points. So refute my points.
Ok. I have to say, your counters were so effective against my arguement that they sailed right over my understanding of what they have to do with my arguement at all.
Abortions and churches having to do with mosques and book burnings? You win.
Post by
160546
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Post by
Hyperspacerebel
The question that rests at the center of this debate is
who blew up the towers?
Was is the Muslim faith? Then we have every right and prerogative to ostracize that faith.
Was it a dozen men who happened to be Muslim? Then we have every right and prerogative to ostracize those men.
If it really is the latter, then neither the community center nor the burning of a Qur'an has anything to do with 9/11, and is just another case of religious discrimination.
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374287
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273605
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Post by
Orranis
You're opposed to it being 2 blocks away but not 4. So what about 3 blocks? What about 4 blocks if you could see ground zero from the centre?
Just putting it out there for whoever wants to use it, you CAN'T see ground zero from the center. Don't ask me to support this opinion, but take my word for it, I live in New York, I've walked past the place it will be built, and went up the Twin Tower's more time then I can count. Sex shops? Check. Run down factories? Check. People coming out of their shops and filling the street with tobacco smoke? Check. Ground Zero? Nope.
I just think it's a ludicrous idea to kill someone over burning a book. If you think killing someone over burning the Qur'an is justified, then I believe you are mentally ill.
Who said they were going to kill anybody? These are the last people who would kill anybody, ranking after me certainly.
I just think it's ludicrous to burn multiple sacred religious document's to convince people to stop building a Religious community center.
Post by
Adamsm
The community center will promote religious tolerance which is something America definitely seems to be lacking.
Compared to who?
edit: I'll include my opinion.
The center is not needed, there you have it.
Why isn't it needed though? Could we have your reasoning behind that comment?
Post by
Orranis
The
center
protesting is not needed, there you have it.
Post by
Heckler
Counter my ideals with logic or keep your opinions to yourself.
This thread is full of logical counters to your 'ideals' in this situation. Simply put, any pressure against this center for any reason related to Ground Zero is necessarily rooted in an assumption of some level of equivalence between the entire religion of Islam (and by association, all of its followers) and the acts that took place on 9/11. This assumption is ignorant, wrongheaded, and improper -- it is not required of anyone to prevent or even acknowledge that sort of turmoil; in fact, it would seem the proper thing to do is to openly combat it.
It is illogical to persecute 1.5 billion people who follow a religion, simply because a tiny percentage of them follow a fundamentalist flawed version of that religion (which the vast majority disagree with) that gave them reason to carry out the attacks.
As I said to Funden, this would be quite similar to protesting a Mormon Temple because of the actions of the FLDS Church. To equate those actions with the actions of the LDS Church as a whole, (and by association, all of its members), is ignorant to the extreme, would you agree? Equating the acts of Al-Qaeda to the Islam Religion as a whole is the
exact
same thing (arguments about magnitude -- raping children vs. killing thousands -- are altogether pointless because in either case, magnitude is equally irrelevant).
As Funden pointed out, these protests happen all the time, but the LDS Church does not capitulate to them. Why? Because they are rooted in ignorance and to do so would simply give them strength. The same thing applies in Manhattan. If the Imam gives in to ignorant bigotry, and moves the center, all he will be doing is admitting that in this current discussion, the
radicals on both sides
are in control of the dialog.
As is your style, I assume you will only reply to one sentence of my post, if you reply at all. So I challenge you to logically and rationally step me through the thought process that will make me agree that it is proper and justified that anyone should be offended by this Center in any way that is not rooted in ignorance. You don't even have to get to 'travesty' -- just get me to 'mildly offended' and I'll be satisfied. There's no reason to attempt to get you to justify the book burning to me (you can't), since all you've presented so far is an argument along the lines of 'it's a bad thing to do, but they've done worse, so it's okay.'
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557539
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Post by
Adamsm
Quick, look who posted that comment.
I do apologize for overgeneralizing, and I think I had used serveral poor choices of words. But seriously, he should have the right to burn the books and whatever happens after that is a result of freedom of speech. Yes, I know he hasn't gone through with it.
There's freedom of speech.... then there's intentionally stirring up a hornet's nest to cause $%^& and conflict just to get yourself publicity.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
There's freedom of speech.... then there's intentionally stirring up a hornet's nest to cause $%^& and conflict just to get yourself publicity.
And who gets to determine and judge intent?
Post by
Adamsm
There's freedom of speech.... then there's intentionally stirring up a hornet's nest to cause $%^& and conflict just to get yourself publicity.
And who gets to determine and judge intent?
When the Freedom of Speech comments are designed to focus and attack a certain religious group or creed, and even worse, targets a group 'known' for violent retribution...yeah....plus, the Pastor in question is a racist bigoted jack ass. It's a thin line after all.
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