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So how about making WoW hard again?
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132319
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93865
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44284
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Post by
xaratherus
This is a myth. There were Karazhan and Gruul/Magtheridon pugs until the end of the expansion. Moreover, there were always guilds at every level of skill and progression, and players who had talent would move up the ladder.
Which, as I mentioned, meant that the guilds who tried to help out new players never progressed as far as the guilds who simply said, "Screw the noobs!" and never set foot into an older raid once they had drained it of every piece of gear they needed.
As a former guild leader from that time period, I can say that what I saw was a culture that led to either the above attitude (wherein new players were left behind), or a
lot
of guild hopping as players found a guild at the level of content for which they needed gear, geared up, and then moved on, leaving the prior guild (the ones trying to be helpful) stuck at their current level of progression.
Wouldn't it be better for casuals and indeed everyone if the game was broad enough to support many different playstyles and getting full 264 wasn't the OBJECT of the game?
But that isn't the fault of the game. It's the fault of the player base.
I have two roommates whose primary entertainment in playing WoW is to collect achievements, pets, and mounts. They don't raid; they don't even run dungeons. They have plenty of fun doing that. They could care less about the iLvl of their gear. There are guilds devoted to fishing, to many other things in the game than just getting the highest tier of gear available.
There is fun to be had in the game without mashing your way to 264 gear sets. The fact that a large portion of the player base sees that as the goal isn't necessarily a problem, nor a 'fault' of Blizzard.
And really, I've yet to see anyone show me that this is a change in attitude, but in volume. Two of my friends have played since vanilla; they were in raiding guilds who used to do 40-mans. The goal then was to get the best gear possible. The only difference between then and now is that there are more people.
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44284
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147340
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Post by
xaratherus
The answer, I feel, is to put a stake to the heart of the "really long hallway" instance paradigm, make instances more complex and less straightforward, and introduce complex content that requires players to communicate and interact in order to do it. Karazhan was arguably the greatest instance ever in large part because it had these qualities - players had to communicate and work together to complete it, and the result was ultimately a more cohesive community and a more fun game.
I agree with Aestu that Kara was the greatest instance because it had all the qualities.. however many players considered Kara overtuned or just outright difficult. Also many guilds stagnated in Kara because of those qaulities that made it great. While you and I think it's amazing... it isn't so amazing when you spend millions of dollars developing two more tiers of content only to see the base ram their heads against the Karazhan wall.
I also agree that Karazhan was very enjoyable. I disagree that ICC lacks those qualities in any great amount.
I'd be willing to compare and debate any given Karazhan fight to any ICC encounter (save LK, which our guild has not yet downed).
You have it backwards. If WoW gets harder, pugs will fail even sooner.
Kinda agree. But it's not always the case though.
I think the more accurate statement would be that the ratio of successful pugs to total pugs would shift, but eventually that a new equilibrium would occur and the ratio would go back to the way it is now (as the total number of pugs decreased).
Post by
xaratherus
It betrays a total lack of perspective on the game to say that the entire object of the game should be to reach the end of it.
It's a game..it is the journey, not the goal, that makes it worth playing
. After all, players should play for fun - and
the fun should be the experience
. The antithesis, of course, is grinding.
Why should players be cheated of the experience of seeing all that worthwhile content? What good is served thrusting them into ICC as fast as possible?
What is
fun
is completely dependant on what the player decides to be fun, not what you personally perceive to be fun. The
worth
of of the content is also completely dependant on the player as well.
In addition to this: I'll have to find the link, but BC was far worse at allowing all players to experience all content - specifically, raiding content. Only a very small percentage of the overall people actually got into the higher-end raids when they were the 'end tier' raid content.
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93865
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93865
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Post by
xaratherus
This is a myth...By contrast, if you rolled a character in TBC, you had the whole game in front of you, start to finish. You would start at regular instances, then heroics and Karazhan, then make your way through ZA, Gruul/Mag, and then into a guild that did SSC/TK.
I just finished telling you that I
didn't
see that content.
I started when BC was released. The last raid that I ever saw during BC was ZA. Why? Because our guild tried to be polite to newer players, and help them gear up by running Karazhan so that they could get into Gruul's and Mag's.
By that time, a number of the people we helped get basic raiding gear were bored and didn't want to help anymore, and felt that our limited attempts at progression were a waste of time because we didn't cut out raiding entry-level content (to try and help other new players in the same way we'd just helped out the complainers).
So they moved on to other guilds that simply wouldn't accept you
unless
you were geared for the content on which they were focused (which was end game) - and we were left without enough geared players to progress, and the cycle started over.
And ours wasn't the only guild to which that happened. I've a large network of real life friends who play WoW, who all tend to try to be helpful to new players, and most of them were stuck in the same boat. The only ones who actually progressed through the content at a normal pace were the ones who finally said, "Sorry you weren't hear when Kara was a going concern; guess you're SOL, we're going to Zul'Aman/TK/Sunwell."
So again - it's not a myth. I experienced it.
When you say "end tier", what exactly does that mean? Why the implied assumption an instance is better because it drops higher item level loot?
I'm not implying anything; the assumption is yours. I used the term 'end tier' to mean the highest-available raid content at a given time. Ruby Sanctum is technically the current end-tier raid; that statement does not imply that it is better or worse than any given content, only that it is the most recently-released tier of raid content.
Get better at WoW. Problem solved. That's the object of any game.
You finished saying earlier that the object of the game is to have fun.
Post by
lonewarrior
As a former guild leader from that time period, I can say that what I saw was a culture that led to either the above attitude (wherein new players were left behind), or a lot of guild hopping as players found a guild at the level of content for which they needed gear, geared up, and then moved on, leaving the prior guild (the ones trying to be helpful) stuck at their current level of progression.
But new players didn't have to be left behind...just grouped according to their progression.
I too am a guild leader. I created raiding parties according to progression. A member 800gs less then a similar member wasn't given a spot in the same raiding party. I put them in a progression group that fit them. I never allowed core progression to stall for my dedicated and best members.
The motto of my guild was what you brought to the guild and not what the guild was suppose to give you.
Getting back to the OP post..I think the difference of opinion between sides when it comes to making the game harder..is one side seeing it as an obstacle and the other seeing it as a challenge.
We all want the game to be fun from our point of view without hindering it for the other guy.
The trouble is Blizz has kind of blurred it for everyone. The foundation of the game is progression.
Through levels..professions...abilities..etc Progression shouldn't stop when you hit 80.
Before WotLK..I use to tell members when they hit 70..your back to level one. Now comes gear progression through heroic 5 mans for better blues and entry level raids for epics. My first epic came from Kara..I can recall the feeling of accomplishment...it was difficult..but I earned it. I remember taking up Blacksmithing just so I could have the Blazefury for tanking. When we were able too..we attempted some early bosses of the next raid up. Staggered progression...we acquired enough gear over time and deeper progression of one raid to attempt parts of a harder one. The way it should be.
Now you hit 80 and your catapulted by default to doing ICC. Epics are no longer epic. The trend towards short term thrills started with the release of ToC 5man drops giving out all epics. I still remember when patch 3.2 came out... a recently joined member who was had just turned 80 and was all green and a raiding noob...literally catapult to Ulduar/Crusader raiding gear. Yes, it was the perfect storm mind you..but it was so funny how he did it. Here we were at the time grinding through Ulduar/Nax/EoE/VoA and where emblems of valor/conquest could only be earned and within 3 weeks after the patch this nub with just putting in a ridiculous amount of time farming conquest...ToC 5man and buying epics was at least geared for Ulduar/Crusader. This guy left my guild because he wanted spots on raids.. yet was a complete raid noob. I had a long time player/friend quit the game. What's the point he said..there's no longer a separation between players. Every new contents patch lets everyone catch up and put on equal footing...so progression longevity no longer matters and accomplishments no longer stand out. He came back when LK final contents came out. But with the buff, most of his guild had done all they could do progression wise(heroic LK25)and took a hiatus until Cata.
The poor guy left again..didn't have the same patients as I did..he just couldn't stand doing pugs with people who were so inept. Though not in my guild..this was the kind of guy the game needs...a player who if you were raiding with..you knew was going to go well. Not a loudmouth like so many of the so call elite players now...but dedicated to his class. These are the kinds of players being eroded from the game...not good.
Post by
xaratherus
But new players didn't have to be left behind...just grouped according to their progression.
I too am a guild leader. I created raiding parties according to progression. A member 800gs less then a similar member wasn't given a spot in the same raiding party. I put them in a progression group that fit them. I never allowed core progression to stall for my dedicated and best members.
The motto of my guild was that you brought to the guild and not what the guild was suppose to give you.
That's assuming that your guild has the membership to run multiple raids. We had, at our largest, 150 characters in our guild; those 150 characters belonged to roughly 40 accounts, and from memory only around 30 of those had characters at the level cap.
That meant at we could set up approximately three 10-man groups (I say approximately because not all of them
wanted
to raid).
We also had limited raid time. Typically it came down to choosing between running earlier raids to gear up new members, or running progression raids.
What you suggest is what we tried to do; in our case it did not work. We lost members as quickly as we geared them (with them moving on to other guilds who were, as I said, only taking you
if
you were geared for their current raid content), which stalled any progression attempts we made.
It's a difference of opinion. I'm not seeing anything in your post that makes me shift my opinion, and it seems the same is true as to with what you're taking from my words. I'm stepping out of this one, because there's no progress to be made.
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44284
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