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Leaving a guild gracefully
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Post by
HoleofArt
New guild. The Female Blood Elf Hunter. I apologize, but I just can't help myself sometimes. Huntards are everywhere, it seems, with varying degrees of how bad. Just a few misconceptions, but give that hunter 10 minutes with me and they'd pull more dps, guaranteed.
Or hell, send them to the Hunter Forums. Rilgon is a good source as well.
Post by
obiwaynekenobi
I know nothing about Hunters so I'll take your word for it. I do know that nobody was doing IMO "subpar" DPS for the ICC25, although I'm sure all of us can improve (myself included).
Post by
HoleofArt
I know nothing about Hunters so I'll take your word for it. I do know that nobody was doing IMO "subpar" DPS for the ICC25, although I'm sure all of us can improve (myself included).
Learn to use worldoflogs.com if nobody in the guild runs it, (it's pretty simple. If I wasn't half asleep and sure I'd tell you how to do it wrong, I'd explain it) and then if you post that somewhere every week or so in a thread (you can always just make a thread, then update it each week with the new log or something) and we could throw in ways to further improve your new guild (fight strats, dps, etc). Maybe talk to your GM or officers about it if you end up stuck on something and have them visit the thread.
I don't know. I'm rambling. No sleep or something.
Post by
obiwaynekenobi
I just want to avoid the "know it all" vibe; I kept a WoL for the old guild but I was afraid to bring it up because I'm still new to the game, and don't want to be trying to tell others who have been playing longer how to play their class, or that they're doing something wrong. That's bitten me a few times in real life as well (I know better than co-workers)
Post by
HoleofArt
Eh. It's not even a "know it all" attitude when all you're doing is directing them (the ones that need improvement, that is) to a thread full of it. Any good player wouldn't disregard your suggestion and would come browse the thread looking for improvement.
Post by
bmered
Really, you're making my reply a bigger thing than it is. My key point was that if you have an axe to grind with Kori for what he's done, take it up directly with him.
Squish, My axe was with you. ;) You made an negative assumption, voiced it and got a reply. Are you shocked? Typically when you go around poking people, eventually someone will poke back. Maybe you don't go around poking people and you just got unlucky on your first poke, I will not make the assumption that you do. If you want me to "attack" Kori, it would probably behoove you to step out of the situation. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone else is entitled to a rebuttal.
Careful with the word "fact".
And no, this thread is not about leaving a guild gracefully... if it were, it would read, "I want to leave my guild, but I don't know how to do it gracefully, help?" That would have been the whole of the content. When you start giving reasons, it becomes a quest for justification.
I've said what I wanted to say to Kori, I wish him well.
Post by
HoleofArt
Really, you're making my reply a bigger thing than it is. My key point was that if you have an axe to grind with Kori for what he's done, take it up directly with him.
Squish, My axe was with you. ;) You made an negative assumption, voiced it and got a reply. Are you shocked? Typically when you go around poking people, eventually someone will poke back. Maybe you don't go around poking people and you just got unlucky on your first poke, I will not make the assumption that you do. If you want me to "attack" Kori, it would probably behoove you to step out of the situation. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone else is entitled to a rebuttal.
Careful with the word "fact".
And no, this thread is not about leaving a guild gracefully... if it were, it would read, "I want to leave my guild, but I don't know how to do it gracefully, help?" That would have been the whole of the content. When you start giving reasons, it becomes a quest for justification.
I've said what I wanted to say to Kori, I wish him well.
Now I'm confused. You seem intelligent.
How do you have issues with regular Rotface?
Derp.
Post by
bmered
I uh... well see what had happened wuz..
bleh, I got nothin. ;)
/bow HoleofArt
Post by
HoleofArt
I can only assume you're the GM or one of the officers based upon your responses.. If you're doing fine.. I shudder to think of what's holding your guild back.
As it is, I wish you luck. Hopefully you'll find people to replace those who die to fire.
Post by
bmered
No one with any sense would let me be in charge of anything. You shudder eh? >;) What an intriguing comment.
Maybe some advice my guild leaders could use? Lend some wisdom, please.
Post by
HoleofArt
Lend some wisdom, please.
Kick the people dying in fire?
Idfk. I don't lead raids. I go pew pew and things die, that's all I know.
Post by
bmered
*scribbles furiously*
Got it! Thanks!
Post by
Squishalot
Squish, My axe was with you. ;)
That's only after I was suggesting you take up your issues (that prompted you and the others to come into this thread at all) directly with Kori. Not just you, but elcolio (Boom?) and Slimesmile as well. Besides, in case it wasn't obvious, my comment was directed specifically at "the guild members coming online to say they never heard about his concerns", referring specifically to the comment made by Slimesmile right above.
If you want me to "attack" Kori, it would probably behoove you to step out of the situation.
I don't care what you do to Kori. I just suggested that:
Seriously, if you want to talk to him about it, don't come here, make a DK or something on Turalyon and talk to him there.
And I still stand by that.
Careful with the word "fact".
Do you deny that you knew he was frustrated?
And no, this thread is not about leaving a guild gracefully... if it were, it would read, "I want to leave my guild, but I don't know how to do it gracefully, help?"
Not to be picky, but he seemed to have his mind made up from the first post in this thread. He included his reasoning so that people could help him to explain to you and the others why he was leaving. I'm not sure what issue you have with that.
My mage is currently in a guild with family members. Suppose I want to leave it to join a raiding guild, so I come here to ask for help how not to offend my family. Do you think that they'll be any help if I give them no context, no reasoning, no anything?
If you think it through, perhaps you'll understand why you think he's had to justify his leaving in this thread. Perhaps you won't, and you'll continue to think less of him for it. But from a neutral observer's point of view, it seems reasonable to me.
Post by
524425
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
bmered
Squish Squish Squish.. what a tangled web. We did take our issues up with Kori, read closely. No one mentioned your name until after you said If you think back, you'll probably find you did hear it, but you laughed it off. Isn't it infuriating how, while just trying to be witty, you can end up insulting people? But then, taking one persons disgruntled opinion and using it to extrapolate the behavior of others.. it's risky business.
Do you deny that you knew he was frustrated? Certainly not my sagely friend, to do so would be an egregious error. You see, I did indeed know Kori was frustrated. How could I not? Expressing that he was frustrated was the extent of his concerted efforts to remedy the situation. In all this, one important fact (ahh there is that pesky, ill-used word again) has been overlooked; Not once, ever, was a plan brought forth, be it simple or complex, to rectify the issues at hand with the guild. Not even a suggestion. Even the most challenged of primates could have told you that we were struggling. To do so required neither mensa level intellect nor any great sacrifice.
Soo, someone stands before you and says, They suck! I told them they suck! And they still suck! And with our limited message board capacity the only conclusion we can come to is that the people who could have obviously turned the situation around with a snap of their fingers, chose instead to laugh at the wisdom being spouted forth in guild chat. Mmmhmmm.
Apparently Squish, you are comfortable with numbers but perhaps not so much so with the subtleties of the human psyche. Kori isn't a mean spirited person and he was a little torn about leaving the guild. His reason for coming here was not to ask how to leave delicately, his reason for coming here was so everyone could tell him he was doing the right thing and thus relieve his (Unfounded) guilt. Fact? Nope. Would I bet my last dollar that it's right on? You betcha.
If you think it through, perhaps you'll understand why you think he's had to justify his leaving in this thread
Oh.. I guess I already did that one? Thinking it through... I'll work on that one.
;)
Sentenia... I am apparently not smart enough to understand what you were trying to convey. Did you finally decide in that post that there are some people you can't make better? Or did you decide that all we need is love, I mean, motivation to make everyone a good raider? Can you please summarize? Maybe you should use the S.T.A.R. format so we can follow along easier.
Post by
Squishalot
We did take our issues up with Kori, read closely.
Directly, via whisper / mail on Turalyon, I said.
Isn't it infuriating how, while just trying to be witty, you can end up insulting people? But then, taking one persons disgruntled opinion and using it to extrapolate the behavior of others.. it's risky business.
Again, I said:
Perhaps 'laugh it off' were the wrong words. "Take no action" is more appropriate.
If you still feel insulted, that's up to you. But I've already withdrawn my first words, so if you're going to continue to take me on, going back to what I said initially is meaningless.
But I'll take you up on that point.
There is more than one kind of laughter, though I suppose you only know of the mean-spirited type, based on your writings. I guess that you think I mean that the guild turned around and laughed at him for having such silly thoughts as to, you know, actually improve? No. What I meant was referring to was that awkward 'we can't do anything about it' laugh that friends, politicians and others give when they know what you're saying is true, but really can't / won't do anything about it.
Again, if you feel insulted, that's up to you.
Apparently Squish, you are comfortable with numbers but perhaps not so much so with the subtleties of the human psyche. Kori isn't a mean spirited person and he was a little torn about leaving the guild. His reason for coming here was not to ask how to leave delicately, his reason for coming here was so everyone could tell him he was doing the right thing and thus relieve his (Unfounded) guilt. Fact? Nope. Would I bet my last dollar that it's right on? You betcha.
I'm not going to make any assumptions about your comfort levels with anything. I will point out that if you were referring to the other thread I linked, you would be spot on. But if you're referring to this thread, you'd lose that last dollar of yours. The other thread was to help him feel like he's doing the right thing. This thread was on how to actually make it happen. Give me a good reason to accept your theory over mine?
Can you please summarize?
My interpretation of his/her paragraphs:
If your guild sucks, it sucks. Edit: And if it sucks, it's the guild leader / officers' fault.
While I don't necessarily agree with his/her point, it makes fairly perfect sense to me.
Post by
bmered
Yes yes Squish, you did indeed recant your statement of you did hear it, but you laughed it off. Thank you, I choose to no longer be insulted by that insinuation.
I guess that you think I mean that the guild turned around and laughed at him for having such silly thoughts as to, you know, actually improve?
No Squish, I thought you meant exactly what you said. Verbatim. Again with the assumptions! Tsk tsk Squish.
What I meant was referring to was that awkward 'we can't do anything about it' laugh that friends, politicians and others give when they know what you're saying is true, but really can't / won't do anything about it.
Well now see Squish, that's not nearly so bad. I can even live with that and not be insulted. Because we did know it was true and we were trying to do something about it, but we were lacking. Unfortunately I don't believe you at this point. I'm sorry to say that I believe you meant it how you wrote it in the first place and after being called out, you realized that it made you look a little presumptuous at best and so you back peddled. But, that's just an opinion and not to be mistaken with fact!
I'm not going to make any assumptions Awesome.
The other thread was to help him feel like he's doing the right thing. This thread was on how to actually make it happen. Give me a good reason to accept your theory over mine?
Squish, seriously? I expect better from you, you seem smart enough, come on. The Entire 3rd paragraph (as much text as the entirety of the rest of the post) of the post was nothing but a list of guild struggles, reasons for leaving. If we are going to debate, lets as least refrain from ignoring the obvious.
Post by
Squishalot
Unfortunately I don't believe you at this point. I'm sorry to say that I believe you meant it how you wrote it in the first place and after being called out, you realized that it made you look a little presumptuous at best and so you back peddled.
That's your choice, and it's not going to affect me at all. Even if your assumption (ooh look!) isn't backed up by anything, and in fact is contradicted by my 'personal experience' comments of:
...comments like "aww, never mind, we'll get it next time" or "nah, just need more practice".
Very malicious stuff there, that is. And entirely in keeping with my clarification for you. If you're trying to misinterpret me in a way that fits in with your first impression of me / my post, there's nothing I can do about that.
The Entire 3rd paragraph (as much text as the entirety of the rest of the post) of the post was nothing but a list of guild struggles, reasons for leaving. If we are going to debate, lets as least refrain from ignoring the obvious.
It is a list. But he's not asking for approval - again, that came in the other thread. Instead, how about look at:
I'm just not sure how to say that I've had a good run (I'm one of their best tanks) but the server quality is bad and it's not giving me the WoW endgame experience I want without sounding like an elitist jerk who's telling the entire guild I'm better than they are.
I'm not worried about getting kicked, I'm worried about burning bridges and coming off like an elitist jackass.
I've talked more to everyone in the guild, especially the RLs, so it feels... disrespectful to just like log on when nobody else is on and /gquit, or do it when barely anyone is on.
I guess I could do that and send an in-game mail to the GM thanking him for having me in the guild
In fact, none of the replies in this thread so much as mention any of the guild struggles until someone asked about how he picked a new realm. On the second page.
Really, I think you're seeing a motive in
this
thread that isn't there. Did you read the other thread?
Post by
524425
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
bmered
Sententia, I want to give you something, so I will give you this; Given enough time, I agree with you that you can help most people improve. I play several different classes/specs and I take a personal interest in people in the guild, give them advice, try to help them. We encourage hands on mentoring, not links to EJ.
But let me also be sure that you understand a reality that you exposed in your initial post: Some people cannot, will not, be helped. Cannot, will not, improve.
Tell me Sententia, if you have say, 6 of your 25 that fall into that category.. if you do not have access to an unlimited talent pool.. What would you do? Give me some details as to how you are going to, as a leader, force those people to stop merging two small slimes in the raid. Tell me exactly how you would force those people move where they need to move when they need to move there? How are you going to make sure they don't drop the Defile in the wrong place and wipe the raid? Do you know how to do that? Enlighten me.
A fury warrior from Paragon who presses whirlwind will hit exactly the same as any other equally geared fury warrior. If it were that easy. If you have raided past the first 4 bosses in ICC you should know that pressing DPS buttons does not win the fight. Knowing where to go, where not to go, when to move and when not to move is often more important than missing a priority or rotation.
As a leader, you can tell them the exactly what to do and why, help them with their priority/rotation/gear/addons, but in the End Sent, you can not press the buttons for them. So tell me again, specifically, how is it that a one person, or even a group of people, can make a good raiding guild no matter the raw materials. With all due respect, you sound very much like an idealist with very little real experience in the application of your ideals.
I'm sick of ideals, anyone can read a self help book and come regurgitate some ideals. Motivation? Right.. give me some details on how you motivated your sub par players and turned them into awesome raiders overnight (which is what Kori wanted to do mind you, so it's in context).
Squish. This is starting to sound repetitive. Even if your assumption (ooh look!) In reference to my saying, "Unfortunately I don't believe you at this point." Go to websters, look up what assumption means Squish. I hate to bust your excitement bubble, but saying that I do not believe you is not an assumption, it's an opinion. The fact that you back peddled is just that, a fact. But I've already withdrawn my first words,.
If you keep trying, I'm sure I will eventually assume something, speak it out loud, and then you can call me on it and feel better.
No need to point to the things in your post that weren't insulting, I mean what is that? Oh yea, I said something insulting, but look at this other stuff I said, it wasn't mean! Really, not necessary. You made a mistake. It happens.
It is a list. But he's not asking for approval I hate having to repeat myself, but here goes. Why do you need a list to find a way to leave a guild gracefully? Explain it to me slowly. And again, I read the rest of the post Squish, no need to repeat.. still, when you were cutting and pasting that, did you notice, as I said above, that the LIST was over half the content of the post? Doesn't that seem a little curious to you? Seriously, Squish, if I ask you how to leave a guild gracefully, can you not tell me unless I give you a laundry list of reasons why I am leaving? I think you could do it without the list Squish, I think anyone could. It's not rocket science.
In fact, none of the replies in this thread so much as mention any of the guild struggles I don't care about any of the other posts here Squish (I do find Sententia's ideas intriguing), just yours. You voiced the inflammatory assumption and I rebutted. You might want me to focus elsewhere, but my sole reason for hitting these keys is to make you realize that you made an assumption based on the grumblings of a disgruntled person and you offended people in doing so. Beyond that simple premise, this is meaningless. You can keep siting trivial things and you may catch me stumbling and have something to work with, but you might not. Eventually even the trolls will get tired of seeing us go back and forth.
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