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Live
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10.2.7
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Beta
[Guide] Cata DK changes (Updated 10/12/10)
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Post by
495174
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Post by
Sondrizzle
I'm just wondering, how is the self-healing currently in the beta?
Post by
391117
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Post by
495174
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
woohaa
The only bug i know of with Ebon Plaguebringer was that Outbreak wasn't applying it. I haven't heard anything that FeS wasn't extending the diseases. To my knowledge it works fine.
The DS change imo is rather odd. It looks good for Tanking purposes except maybe the 5 second part, for DPS trying to self heal, it won't even be worth using.
The change is suppose to be inline with the 30% reduced damage that block provides although we get to use it on any form of damage. However, with the rune system change i think 5 seconds may be alittle short. Unless, they plan for us to sit on our FU runes a bit to try to use them right after we take a hit. As far as the amount that it will heal for i think that will probably be fine, in blood spec anyway. Let's say a boss hits you for around 40k. 30% is around 10.2k which will get increased by imp deathstrike. So your looking at around 17k HP. So, the 17K is about how much a paly may be able to reduce damage by. However, we'll also get some extra damage reduction in the form of our Life Shield. Which, will increase the more mastery you have. Hopefully, putting us in line with Warrior Critical Blocks.
I think in regards of fire and forget palys and wars will have it much easier. We'll have to actually time our DS's to get the maximum benefit out of it.
Post by
495174
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Post by
apocalypsa
EH on runeforges?
Awesome.
Also, we need to discuss what the abbreviation will be for Dark Simulacrum. I vote for DaS, because das is badger in dutch.
Post by
woohaa
i've seen alot of different variations so far. I think my favorites were DaS and DSim.
i didn't make up either and tbh i don't prefer one or the other. i like both atm.
Also, @alcotraz, I think even though it's probably not gonna be a viable build to DW blood tank. They still made it available for those people that really really wanted it. It's going to suck badly in comparison and the only way i see it working is that SoB will provide more RP for more RS's. Which in turn provides more RE procs. So theoretically you'd get more self healing in terms of DS. But since you don't have ToT your threat will suck for lack of damage. So i dunno. Personally i won't be trying it since my first rule is hold agro.
Post by
DraconisAerius
i've seen alot of different variations so far. I think my favorites were DaS and DSim.
i didn't make up either and tbh i don't prefer one or the other. i like both atm.
Also, @alcotraz, I think even though it's probably not gonna be a viable build to DW blood tank. They still made it available for those people that really really wanted it. It's going to suck badly in comparison and the only way i see it working is that SoB will provide more RP for more RS's. Which in turn provides more RE procs. So theoretically you'd get more self healing in terms of DS. But since you don't have ToT your threat will suck for lack of damage. So i dunno. Personally i won't be trying it since my first rule is hold agro.
I get the feeling that DW tanking is going to suck for anyone trying it, up to the point where we outgear the content by alot. Then it will be perfectly capable, but still not optimal.
Post by
woohaa
well it'll be the same people trying to tank in Unholy and Frost. It'll only work on content you outgear.
Post by
495174
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Post by
Achloryn
This may've been mentioned already (and sorry if it has, i haven't read all of the posts in this thread yet), but will Sudden Doom procs cause Shadow Infusion to stack? Seems to me like it probably wouldn't because of the wording of Shadow Infusion (it says "When you cast Death Coil...."), but it would be awesome if it did.
Also, any thoughts behind this spec for unholy?
http://www.wowtal.com/#k=xfWYNBaQ.9zi.deathknight
The 1 point in Desecration is just filler because that 2nd tier of UH talents is kinda garbage... and I Thought about putting the last point (currently in RP Mastery) into blood boil, but i'm not sure how much use that would get from unholy DKs. I'm not as up on DKs in the beta as i'd like to be.
Post by
495174
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Post by
Achloryn
Almost on-target - 1/3 Magic Suppression is mandatory for RP generation from AMS sorry, you gotta drop RPM :P
I think sudden doom death coils will cause Shadow Infusion to stack, but not sudden doom directly. Sorry not too affiliated with DPS.
Ahhh, you're right. I didn't even notice the tooltip for Magic Suppression... didn't look over it very clearly. Also, dropping the one point in RPM doesn't hurt my feelings that badly. If the points were available, 2 in RPM would be nice for machine-gunning death coils, but meh. 100 RP works for me I guess.
Post by
woohaa
Butchery is kind of a boring talent but i think it fits their new talent design. If your build is short on RP then you can spec into butchery. Unfortunately, with Frost and Unholy's sub-specs lacking your kind of forced to take Butchery which sucks.
I do like your DS idea...switching it to RP would help alot, i'd also add DnD to that or BB. i don't care which tbh. anyway, hopefully we'll see another DK pass before the number tweaks come. I think i may put out my own little "Wish List" of DK changes i'd like to see in this next build. My list won't be comprised of NEW abilities or NEW mechanics, but easy ways to fix the problems plagueing DKs in beta atm.
Post by
495174
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
apocalypsa
Thats all nice and stuff but it would kill:
Blood pvp
Frost or Unholy tanking
Frost or Unholy soloing
Blood dps
And various other not-optimal but fun specs. Basically it would go even further than the forced 31 points.
Apparently having your own ideas is bad mkay?
Post by
495174
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
apocalypsa
What I was trying to say is that they go from pretty sub par to totally retarded.
Post by
woohaa
my question for you is if you switch over DS and HS over to RP. what will you use for rune abilities? OB and BS? I think in terms of spec ability usage. Blizzard probably wants the 3 different trees to use specific abilities. Blood DS/HS/RS, Frost OB/BS/FS, Unholy FeS/SS/DC. Well that's what i'm getting from all the changes they've made thus far. You might be able to justify DS and use OB in it's place, but probably not both abilities. But as it is now in beta all they really need to fix is SoB and RS. as you said if RS's avoidance requirement was removed the ability would be a much better GCD filler. Aside from that SoB needs to provide more RP. They haven't tweaked that talent at all and it still provides the same amount as it does on live. But with rune usage being reduced by half...shouldn't the amount of RP generation increased by double to compensate?
I think i kinda already stated my thoughts on DnD switching to RP so i'll skip that. So since you didn't cover DPS i'll go ahead and go over that. As a whole they both don't have much issues but the few there are i'll go over them.
Frost Issues
GCD capped - This is a huge issue if you plan on using a 2handed Frost spec. MotFW is a waste if the extra RP you generate can't be used and your RP is always capped. This, will also reduce how well haste will scale with the spec. Faster rune recharges mean nothing if you don't have the GCDs to use them.
Tier 1&2 Talents - Tell me that when you tried to make a frost spec you didn't go...WTF when you saw the first 2 tiers of Frost or try to make a unholy or blood spec that subs into frost. The first 2 tiers need work that's all i can say. There's also a lack of 2 hand supported talents in the tree aside from MotFW.
Learning Curve - I'm gonna admit. if you think the current frost is hard to learn...wait till you try this frost. you get a nice new 3rd proc...Runic Empowerment. Frost definitely keeps it's difficulty level going into cata. Also, with RE procs comes the new Rime. Rime allows a free IT or HB. currently HB does more damage but i'm sure that will get fixed soon and IT will be the go to ability for single target. Your probably thinking the same thing i am...that will unsync your diseases. yes it will and with the new rune system and longer diseases you will have to keep an eye on it instead of Reapplying it every other rotation.
Frost Change wishlist
GCD cap - So how to fix this. Well i'm sure their gonna back off on RP generation as a whole...probably nerf it slightly. However, that's not fun and interesting. Glyph of FS managed to survive the initial Glyph pass. Why? not sure...it's just as useless as MotFW. Provides you with extra FS's that you don't have time for. So...Why not change the glyph to increase damage while consuming more RP. This would also make 2hand Frost better, while solving the GCD issues.
Talents - So here's the deal...Frost's tree is bloated with either talents that only affect Frost abilities or crap. So honestly some need to go. The problem is the amount of utility talents in the first 2 tiers...icy reach, lichborne, on a pale horse, endless winter. NoCS needs to be moved down so no other spec can get it. Annihilation should also be moved...no other spec should be getting it either. Otherwise it opens the door to OB specs. There's not many candidates to move to tier 1 and 2. Merciless combat is probably the best choice, but there would probably need to be atleast 1 more decent talent to make it enticing enough and there's nothing else to move so i'd say they'll need to make a change or make something new.
Hungering Cold - How many people have gotten this talent only to kick themselves after? and now your forced to spec into it. Our only form of CC, which is not reappliable and has a long CD. This talent needs to be changed to something more like the Ice Tomb ability the boss in UK does. If we can't reapply the CC it should atleast last a long time and shouldn't be easily broken.
Unholy Issues
GCD cap - just like frost unholy is GCD capped. Not specifically at the beginning of the fight but more around 30-45 seconds.
DW unholy - honestly it's not a huge issue but i guess if we weren't GCD capped DW unholy would scale much better then 2hand. So this has to be removed.
Unholy Presence and Imp Unholy pres - You know something is an issue when no one uses it. The only reason to get IUP is for the haste. this will of course be much better when they fix the GCD issues.
Unholy Changes wishlist
Sudden Doom - This needs to be changed to proc off 2hand only. If they do want to make DW possible but not better then 2hand then make it proc off the MH only and 2handers. This will fix that problem.
GCD cap - Can't really do anything to change this but RP generation tweaks. So i won't really comment on it.
Unholy Blight and Resilient Infection - I'm confused why they put these talents into the same tree. UB makes your diseases immune...so why have a talent that refunds the rune cost if your disease get's removed? Getting both is probably a waste of talent pts and not getting UB is a dps loss. I'd guess it's cause it's specifically a sub-spec talent that has no use to it's current tree.
Dirge - I say we just get rid of Dirge. This is just a waste of space. It no longer provides extra RP to your main abilities so honestly just scrap it and make something else.
AoE - Unholys Aoe is weird. contagion is nice since our aoe just went back up. But the rotation itself is odd. I think DnD needs to be moved to RP and also corpse explosion needs to make a comeback. just fix the bugs so it's not so OP.
As far as the both trees go they don't need much work except some number tweaking to fix the issues that are preventing the specs from having some breathing room and odd rotations. Imagine HB's new aoe rotation.
IT/PS/pest/DnD/HB/BB
HB/HB/HB/HB//PS?
yes the removal of HB's CD will cause some oddities alongside with DnD and the extra unholy rune that you can't really do anything with. You'll just have to let it sit till RE procs something. Unholy is similar as i pointed out. But as it is you could and probably will do decent damage it's just odd and it seems rough. I think they've been focusing mainly on our single target rotations and didn't even consider Aoe yet.
There might be some other things that could be fixed that i forgot but eh this is what i got so far.
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