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Draenei offical swept under the rug..
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Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Heh, well, that is why they dropped, they didn't want to be seen as the same thing as the monsters who chased them across existence, slaughter worlds or corrupting them in their wake... and it's even possible there is more to Azeroth universe space travel then we realize and at some point, a group escaped a planet caught in the middle of the Eredar Man'ari Eredar war and let people know about the Draenei, who changed their name at that point.Hard to say. However, as far as I know, there was no real war between the "ur-draenei," as it were, and the man'ari. Velen's faction just got the hell out of Dodge.It's implied that a lot of worlds fell as the Legion chased the Draenei, till they finally 'lost' them at Draenor; in fact, some of the suggestions are that those worlds where the Legion found the draenei again and again, actually ended up as more recruits.
Post by
Alliari
It's also the only playable race that Warcraft has that is completely original, as Lolotea said.
Completely original, no. The best way to sum up the Draenei is "Good demons." And that's been done already.
They are, however, one of the most interesting races in all of WoW. However, if there is bias against them from Blizzard, it's more functional bias than anything. The reason the BEs had more lore in Wrath is because they're the only race from the Horde that could even have a foothold in Dalaran lore-wise. I'd have preferred a caste of Troll mages, personally, but yeah.
And it looks like both BC races will be getting the shaft come Cata, again for practical reasons (starting zones aren't on the Azeroth server, etc.)Okay, I'll grant you that.
Draenei are
mostly
original. Blue skin, holy light, face tentacles, and the fly around in an interdimensional spaceship. Not completely original, but very original.
Agreed. The Draenei are original to an extent. Although not in a true fanatasy world, the fact that they fly around in a spaceship, made out of crystals no less, and are the purest, noblest beings in the warcraft universe (Maybe one step down from the Narru).
And it seems that a little beta birdie told me that the Blood Elves are a main stone stepper in Uldum. If that is true, why haven't we heard that the Draenei are advancing anywhere.
Post by
624787
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Alliari
Huh, I got quoted. (to the OP)
Although not in a true fanatasy world
What the hell does that mean?
I'm really getting sick of this attitude that fantasy MUST exclude certain things in order to be considered "True Fantasy." Hell, many people fly into a rage if you even dare include gunpowder into your setting.
Seriously, it's no wonder mainstream fantasy is so dull. What do you expect when every goddamn fantasy setting has to be set in a psuedo medieval Western Europe with elves and wizards? FFS, there's old D&D modules that feature crashed spaceships and robots!
By 'Not true fantasy' I mean not like traditional, Tolkien style of fantasy. Warcraft now has internal combustion engines, spaceships, gunpowder, many steam punk-esque elements, robots, and computers.
I think of fantasy as more of magic, swords, sorcery, and the likes. Not exactly spaceships, robots and computers.
Post by
Adamsm
Huh, I got quoted. (to the OP)
Although not in a true fanatasy world
What the hell does that mean?
I'm really getting sick of this attitude that fantasy MUST exclude certain things in order to be considered "True Fantasy." Hell, many people fly into a rage if you even dare include gunpowder into your setting.
Seriously, it's no wonder mainstream fantasy is so dull. What do you expect when every goddamn fantasy setting has to be set in a psuedo medieval Western Europe with elves and wizards? FFS, there's old D&D modules that feature crashed spaceships and robots!
By 'Not true fantasy' I mean not like traditional, Tolkien style of fantasy. Warcraft now has internal combustion engines, spaceships, gunpowder, many steam punk-esque elements, robots, and computers.
I think of fantasy as more of magic, swords, sorcery, and the likes. Not exactly spaceships, robots and computers.
WoW has been steampunk since the Second War(Tides of Darkness), and lorewise from the First as there were probably gnome and dwarf forces fighting against the Horde at Stormwind. And WoW stopped being normal fantasy as soon as the Orcs came to Azeroth from another world.
Post by
624787
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Grythak
I do not think that Blizzard "forgot" the draenei. Nor do I think that they were intentionally discarded because of the outbursts of draenei-detractors. That's a non-existent causal link with a giant murky cloud in between. It's an excuse that may have worked for Wrath of the Lich King, but the nerdrage over draenei is practically non-existent, despite what some think. Being called "spacegoats" has not hurt the acceptance of draenei anymore than blood elves being called "gay fairies." Instead, I believe that the likeliest explanation is that Blizzard wrote themselves into a corner with the draenei.
Draenei were mentioned in prior lore, but never really seen except the lost ones in the Swamp of Sorrows and those Broken (with lost one models) in the WC3 XP. Their role in lore, their entire raison d'être, was simply "the race that the savage Orcish Horde exterminated" on Draenor. Then Metzen combined these draenei with the "wouldn't it be cool to play a demon but not a demon" race idea. In order to be antithetical to demons in every way, their entire culture from the ground-up became centered around the holy light and purity. But Blizzard did not purify the draenei so much as sterilize them. Every race
but
the draenei are portrayed in varying shades of grey. The darkest their shades of grey goes is a choice of creme or extra bold French Roast coffee. And they cannot venture into the dark end because then "BOOM! Demon!"
By making them anti-demons, they made the draenei a little too perfect, pure, and powerful. I am not sure if they know what direction to take the draenei story. High/blood elves had a highly secure place in Azeroth's lore prior to their introduction as a player race. They were in Warcraft 2 & XP, Warcraft 3 & XP, and seen in Classic WoW. Having them as playable units in WC2 firmly places them into "Classic Warcraft" era. What's more, the high elves as native inhabitants of Azeroth continue to have a role in Warcraft. Tauren are also relative newcomers to the lore of Azeroth, first appearing in Warcraft 3, but tauren were at least natives of Azeroth on Kalimdor with a long history of settlement on Azeroth itself. The same is true with the night elves. But the night elves also have a gigantic list of "dumb mistakes" and "learning experiences" that gives their race darker shades of grey than draenei. Sure the draenei can point to the Burning Legion and say, "That is our shade of grey," but it is not present in the draenei faction itself. These draenei have no dark legacy, since they avoided all of the corruption of the Burning Legion and rubbed shoulders with Warcraft angels.
So I think that the greatest problem Blizzard faces with draenei is not forgetfulness or a purposeful cold-shoulder, but where to take the story of the draenei next in way that does not seem tacked on or forced. The lore of the draenei needs to be expanded. But in order for them to be successfully integrated into the setting, it MUST be done on Azeroth. Expanding their lore through an Argus expansion only further cements the perception that draenei are alien outsiders on Azeroth. More draenei
permanent
settlements need to be built throughout Kalimdor. A new style of architecture needs to develop that blends Kaldorei & Draenei (& Gilnean) building styles or shows draenei crystal tech in night elf settlements. I believe that this more than anything else is what the draenei need to expand their lore: they need to become more integral to the world of Azeroth itself.
Post by
624787
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
How many people roll a space goat other then to play a shammy?No one plays talbuks. People do, however, play non-shaman
draenei
. there sure not rolled cause there the best looking/class combo there rolled cause ally have no other choice cause of blizz's $%^&up thats is dranie's existence.So you don't like draenei. We get it. I don't like gnomes, and you don't see me trolling gnome threads.
Considering how badly done some of the Alliance models are, yes, the space goats are the best looking Alliance race.Male humans; don't get me started.
In fact, I roll space goat for most of my Alliance characters. I love me some space goats. The only thing I don't roll as space goat are Warriors because Gnome Warriors rock.I've got draenei of every class. However, not all of them get played very often, generally on account of my realizing I'm not too fond of that class.
Honestly I think it has less to do with people complaining about the draenei then it does about blizz writing themselves into a corner with the draenei lore. I mean one of the biggest things they are trying to do is put the "war" back into warcraft, and seeing as the draenei were the ones to say that the horde and the alliance would get together to fight the darkness... They may not want to fight, but they will. Despite what you may hear from people bashing on them, they aren't wimps or cowards.
And seriously...all of this B.S. about "putting the WAR back into WARcraft" is getting exasperating. I really couldn't care less about PvP; however, things aren't exactly peaceful when I have to violently thwart the plans of various nasties that want Tall Blue cutlets for dinner (and I wouldn't have it any other way).
Completely original, no. The best way to sum up the Draenei is "Good demons." And that's been done already.Demons redeeming themselves, which is something of a different beast? Possibly.
The ancestral species behind demons having been good guys all along? Not so much.
In fact, I'd venture to say that if a D&D setting ever involves a bunch of what appear to be demons showing up in the setting and saying "mistakes were made; need more paladins?" I'll be the first to accuse them of ripping off WoW.
I'd have preferred a caste of Troll mages, personally, but yeah.Hear, hear.
And it looks like both BC races will be getting the shaft come Cata, again for practical reasons (starting zones aren't on the Azeroth server, etc.)At least blood elves get warrior and a few camps in the Uldum area...
The only real problem I ever had with draenei was with the alliance getting draenei in the first place. I still believe that a noble race joining the horde would have made a huge step down the road of peace and honor that Thrall was trying to lead the horde down. Hey—I've been saying, ever since BC, that the Horde needs another painfully honorable race (they've already got the tauren) and that the Alliance needs more antiheroes.
Much as I liked BC, it actually imbalanced things a bit. In vanilla, it was definitely a "gray and grey morality" situation; while the Horde had the one arguably overwhelmingly evil race (Forsaken), they also had the one overwhelmingly good race. Then BC came along...and the Alliance got draenei, while the Horde got yet another "gray" race.
It's implied that a lot of worlds fell as the Legion chased the Draenei, till they finally 'lost' them at Draenor; in fact, some of the suggestions are that those worlds where the Legion found the draenei again and again, actually ended up as more recruits.Well, there is, of course, the fact that Kil'jaeden was going around acting like a jilted lover, only on a demon-lord scale (i.e. breaking planets instead of dishes). However, while there is the implication that some of the inhabitants of the worlds he broke ended up getting recruited (willingly or otherwise) into the Legion, I've never heard anything about an outright war between the draenei and the man'ari. (Although it can probably be implied that they were preparing for one.)
I'm really getting sick of this attitude that fantasy MUST exclude certain things in order to be considered "True Fantasy." Hell, many people fly into a rage if you even dare include gunpowder into your setting.Ah, yes, the law of Fantasy Gun Control. This is why I love the nation of Alkenstar in
Pathfinder
...not to mention the presence of rifles in WoW.
By the way, the setting upon which I am at work? There will at least be muskets. Rare and unreliable, perhaps, but they will exist.
Seriously, it's no wonder mainstream fantasy is so dull. What do you expect when every goddamn fantasy setting has to be set in a psuedo medieval Western Europe with elves and wizards? FFS, there's old D&D modules that feature crashed spaceships and robots!Hear, hear. (And I loved
Spelljammer
like a kid loves the candy shop. True facts.)
I do not think that Blizzard "forgot" the draenei. Nor do I think that they were intentionally discarded because of the outbursts of draenei-detractors. That's a non-existent causal link with a giant murky cloud in between.Correlation does not necessarily imply causation. But, as Lavok has noted, it's a bit
too
coincidental.
It's an excuse that may have worked for Wrath of the Lich King, but the nerdrage over draenei is practically non-existent, despite what some think....you're joking, right? Because it's pretty damn obvious.
Being called "spacegoats" has not hurt the acceptance of draenei anymore than blood elves being called "gay fairies."Beside the point. While the term "spacegoat" is sometimes used as an insult (and is one of the lamest slang terms ever), some people call their own characters that.
When I speak of "nerdrage," I mean the people yammering about how draenei "ruined the lore." And yes, it happens.
But Blizzard did not purify the draenei so much as sterilize them. Every race
but
the draenei are portrayed in varying shades of grey. The darkest their shades of grey goes is a choice of creme or extra bold French Roast coffee. And they cannot venture into the dark end because then "BOOM! Demon!" The Auchenai beg to differ.
By making them anti-demons, they made the draenei a little too perfect, pure, and powerful.They're not all
that
powerful if the orcs wiped out three-quarters of the race. Sure the draenei can point to the Burning Legion and say, "That is our shade of grey," but it is not present in the draenei faction itself. These draenei have no dark legacy, since they avoided all of the corruption of the Burning Legion and rubbed shoulders with Warcraft angels. Again, the draenei have the Auchenai (and a significant presence in the Wyrmcult). That's at least comparable to, say, the Grimtotems.
So I think that the greatest problem Blizzard faces with draenei is not forgetfulness or a purposeful cold-shoulder, but where to take the story of the draenei next in way that does not seem tacked on or forced. The lore of the draenei needs to be expanded. But in order for them to be successfully integrated into the setting, it MUST be done on Azeroth. Expanding their lore through an Argus expansion only further cements the perception that draenei are alien outsiders on Azeroth. More draenei
permanent
settlements need to be built throughout Kalimdor. A new style of architecture needs to develop that blends Kaldorei & Draenei (& Gilnean) building styles or shows draenei crystal tech in night elf settlements. I believe that this more than anything else is what the draenei need to expand their lore: they need to become more integral to the world of Azeroth itself.You'll get no argument from me on any of this. (Although I still think the Argus expansion pack should eventually
happen
, for the sheer Jo Clayton/
Talislanta
-level weirdness that could result).
To clarify me previous post (I was in a hurry when I made it.)
It's fantasy when it has wizards and elves, but it's "less fantasy" if they add robots next to those wizards and elves?
See, that's what annoys me. Apparantly, what defines whether or not something is "true fantasy" is the technology level of the setting. (And whether or not it's set in a psuedo Western Europe)Agreed on all counts, which is why I like the less conventional settings.
Now, don't take my word for it, but I did hear that the draenei might be getting a town in STV and I think Badlands.That was a suggestion made at Scrolls of Lore, not a leak.
There is, however, a
new building at the Harborage in the Swamp of Sorrows
that would not look out of place in Telaar.
Post by
Adamsm
(Although it can probably be implied that they were preparing for one.)Heh, Army of Light eh?
Post by
FarseerLolotea
Heh, Army of Light eh?Bingo.
Post by
Alliari
To clarify me previous post (I was in a hurry when I made it.)
It's fantasy when it has wizards and elves, but it's "less fantasy" if they add robots next to those wizards and elves?
See, that's what annoys me. Apparantly, what defines whether or not something is "true fantasy" is the technology level of the setting. (And whether or not it's set in a psuedo Western Europe)
So I think that the greatest problem Blizzard faces with draenei is not forgetfulness or a purposeful cold-shoulder, but where to take the story of the draenei next in way that does not seem tacked on or forced. The lore of the draenei needs to be expanded. But in order for them to be successfully integrated into the setting, it MUST be done on Azeroth. Expanding their lore through an Argus expansion only further cements the perception that draenei are alien outsiders on Azeroth. More draenei permanent settlements need to be built throughout Kalimdor. A new style of architecture needs to develop that blends Kaldorei & Draenei (& Gilnean) building styles or shows draenei crystal tech in night elf settlements. I believe that this more than anything else is what the draenei need to expand their lore: they need to become more integral to the world of Azeroth itself.
Excellent post all around. I'm still somewhat skeptical of Blizzard's intentions with the draenei, but I can see the points you made.
Now, don't take my word for it, but I did hear that the draenei might be getting a town in STV and I think Badlands.
I don't really mean 'less fantasy' ( though it may have come off that way). I'm talking about a different type of fantasy then your typical Lord of the Rings, Eragon, and the likes. World of Warcraft definitely has many fantasy elements. The fact that it is (kinda) set in a castles and wizards world gives it a nice fantasy element. It strays from that element through the addition of other elements such as robots, computers and spaceships. I'm not saying that WoW isn't less fantasy then other games. What I'm trying to convey that WoW has a fantasy element, but with many other elements mixed in.
Less fantasy? No. Fantasy with many other elements mixed in, such as sci-fi and steam punk? Yes.
WoW is a melting pot.
Post by
Monday
Less fantasy? No. Fantasy with many other elements mixed in, such as sci-fi and steam punk? Yes.
WoW is a melting pot.
Which is why it wins.
Post by
558249
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
On topic:Draenei lore has been ignored even though it can actually be some of the better lore.I hope blizzard does something with them eventually.I mean they are the ONLY race not getting any new classes in Cataclysm.Meaning that Blizzard is going to have to
compensate
.(##RESPBREAK##)140##DELIM##MasterOfDisguise##DELIM##
Post by
558249
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MasterOfDisguise
Now that all the derailment from the last page or so has been deleted, let's return to the original topic so that I don't have to lock this thread. :)(##RESPBREAK##)140##DELIM##MasterOfDisguise##DELIM##
Post by
FarseerLolotea
ON TOPIC:Draenei are looking like they may get a lore boost in cataclysm.Certain screenshots are saying so.Ooo, show me, if you please?
I'd still like to see Forest Song built up into a proper town. And I'm hoping the new building in the Harborage means that there will be an inn there.
Post by
558249
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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