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10.2.7
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Symbolism and double meanings
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Post by
138638
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
204878
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Post by
Hyperspacerebel
He should be free to express his views in what he wears, whether he means to wear the Nazi symbol or not. Unless they ban all rings, it's discrimination. That's why I find Germany's ban of it silly, they get rid of racial discrimination and replace it with political discrimination.
Post by
Adamsm
If people can't see the difference between the two, you just sigh shake your head and take it off till your away from the idiots.
Post by
204878
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Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Maybe it's more like embarrassment? I could understand that I think.
That's no basis for undermining people's freedom of belief and expression thereof.
Post by
204878
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Post by
Heckler
The Supreme Court held that schools may restrict First Amendment Freedom of Expression of students for promoting illegal activity (
'Bong hits 4 Jesus' case --
Morse v. Frederick
, 2007
) at school sanctioned events or locations.
However, they've also ruled that students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate" (
Tinker v. Des Moines, 1969
-- a case involving Black Armbands worn in protest of the Vietnam War which resulted in suspension).
I think your friend would have a strong case to argue his rights were violated, regardless of whether it was a Nazi swastika or a Hindu one. The two main threads behind these court decisions were that if the expression did not violate or advocate violation of the law, and did not impede the rights of others, then the school should not be able to restrict a students rights.
Sue the school.
Post by
Squishalot
Can you voluntarily give away your rights by agreeing to participate in something? For example, your right to freedom of speech in a movie cinema?
In that respect, by attending the school in the first place, the student may be agreeing to abide by the rules of the school, which may include a form of discrimination and restriction on expression. Compulsory school uniforms would be a similar sort of enforceable policy.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Can you voluntarily give away your rights by agreeing to participate in something? For example, your right to freedom of speech in a movie cinema?
In that respect, by attending the school in the first place, the student may be agreeing to abide by the rules of the school, which may include a form of discrimination and restriction on expression. Compulsory school uniforms would be a similar sort of enforceable policy.
Private property, yes. Owners can institute what ever rules they want. Public property is "owned" by everyone (taxpayers) and thus cannot (or should not be able to) discriminate against any of them.
Post by
607995
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Post by
138638
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Post by
Heckler
Can you voluntarily give away your rights by agreeing to participate in something? For example, your right to freedom of speech in a movie cinema?
You don't have the same rights in the Movie Theater as in a school, since it's a private establishment and the school is public (I assume -- if the school is private, they can do whatever they want). If you start screaming in a Theater, you'll get kicked out... you won't be detained, arrested, etc.
In that respect, by attending the school in the first place, the student may be agreeing to abide by the rules of the school, which may include a form of discrimination and restriction on expression. Compulsory school uniforms would be a similar sort of enforceable policy.
I don't think I've seen a
public
school with compulsory uniforms (not saying they don't exist though, they might)... but they do usually have dress codes on things like skirt length -- I think the schools ability to restrict 'lewd' behavior might be covered by
Bethel School Dist. No. 4 v. Frasier
, 1986
. But I doubt they would be able to get away with the banning of a symbol, so long as it is worn peacefully (as not to disrupt the educational process) and does not promote violation of the law.
Post by
Adamsm
Eh, I have a pair of pentacles pendents(circles with a star in the middle, point upwards); one has a fire motif on it(my birth element) and the other is merging of the 5 Elements, Earth Air Water Fire and Spirit/Aura. I've had multiple people tell me it's a sign of the devil, it's a pentagram(which isn't evil anyways), I'm a witch(sorta true), and a Satanist and that was during High School. People like that you just ignore and if I ever go into a Church or a place where they could be seen as a problem, I just tuck it away under my shirt and continue on as I am.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Eh, I have a pair of pentacles pendents(circles with a star in the middle, point upwards); one has a fire motif on it(my birth element) and the other is merging of the 5 Elements, Earth Air Water Fire and Spirit/Aura. I've had multiple people tell me it's a sign of the devil, it's a pentagram(which isn't evil anyways), I'm a witch(sorta true), and a Satanist and that was during High School. People like that you just ignore and if I ever go into a Church or a place where they could be seen as a problem, I just tuck it away under my shirt and continue on as I am.
Agreed, but, you can't just
ignore
a teacher who is trying to confiscate it.
Post by
Adamsm
Eh, I have a pair of pentacles pendents(circles with a star in the middle, point upwards); one has a fire motif on it(my birth element) and the other is merging of the 5 Elements, Earth Air Water Fire and Spirit/Aura. I've had multiple people tell me it's a sign of the devil, it's a pentagram(which isn't evil anyways), I'm a witch(sorta true), and a Satanist and that was during High School. People like that you just ignore and if I ever go into a Church or a place where they could be seen as a problem, I just tuck it away under my shirt and continue on as I am.
Agreed, but, you can't just
ignore
a teacher who is trying to confiscate it.
If anyone had tried that while I was in high school, I would have walked out of the classroom, and headed down to the VP/Principals office; no teacher has the right to take anything from a student in a public school, especially if said thing isn't causing a disruption or making noise(referring to MP3/Cell phones with that comment).
Post by
Squishalot
Can you voluntarily give away your rights by agreeing to participate in something? For example, your right to freedom of speech in a movie cinema?
In that respect, by attending the school in the first place, the student may be agreeing to abide by the rules of the school, which may include a form of discrimination and restriction on expression. Compulsory school uniforms would be a similar sort of enforceable policy.
Private property, yes. Owners can institute what ever rules they want. Public property is "owned" by everyone (taxpayers) and thus cannot (or should not be able to) discriminate against any of them.
But they're not discriminating against anybody. They're restricting an image. I realise that most schools in the US don't have a compulsory uniform policy, but I would have thought that there are public schools that do.
And in the event that the school in the OP is a private school, presumably, it would be permitted.
I don't think I've seen a public school with compulsory uniforms (not saying they don't exist though, they might)... but they do usually have dress codes on things like skirt length -- I think the schools ability to restrict 'lewd' behavior might be covered by Bethel School Dist. No. 4 v. Frasier, 1986. But I doubt they would be able to get away with the banning of a symbol, so long as it is worn peacefully (as not to disrupt the educational process) and does not promote violation of the law.
What's the definition of 'lewd' behaviour? I mean, skirt length and symbols of anti-semitism would both be treated and thought of fairly similarly, perhaps? KKK hoods and masks?
Post by
124027
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Post by
Heckler
But they're not discriminating against anybody. They're restricting an image. I realise that most schools in the US don't have a compulsory uniform policy, but I would have thought that there are public schools that do.
And in the event that the school in the OP is a private school, presumably, it would be permitted.
Restricting an image is restricting expression -- Expression is protected by the First Amendment in almost all cases that do not involve a disruption of the school's educational mission.
If it's a private school, then they can ban whatever expression they want.
What's the definition of 'lewd' behaviour? I mean, skirt length and symbols of anti-semitism would both be treated and thought of fairly similarly, perhaps? KKK hoods and masks?
In the case I linked, I believe it was one of two things (both would have had the force of law behind them) -- "Obscene" by a lawful definition, or disruptive to the primary educational mission of the school. KKK Hoods would fall under this category, and a Swastika
might
too (Hindu or Nazi). If the ring was causing a disruption, then the school has a justification. Whether or not it is substantial enough to warrant a restriction of student's rights would be tested by filing suit (or threatening to file suit) against the school, to see if they gave in.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
But they're not discriminating against anybody. They're restricting an image. I realise that most schools in the US don't have a compulsory uniform policy, but I would have thought that there are public schools that do.
And in the event that the school in the OP is a private school, presumably, it would be permitted.
No. Dress codes, but no uniforms. That's a private school thing. And restricting an image is discrimination. You're saying "your beliefs are not welcome here." It's no different than banning burqas, or chastity bracelets, or a religious medal on your keys.
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