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Cata: Kitty Dots?
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Post by
Dynamicdruid
I'm planning on changing my druid back to kitty dps. I saw that in Cata DoTs and HoTs will now be affected by haste and crit. Feral DPS isn't about haste AT ALL, considering we already have a 1 second attack speed. Anyone know how kitties will be affected by this? Or will we be the only ones whose DoTs only hit like normal and not more often than? Granted with a ton of crit we may not notice much dps difference than other classes. Just wondering what you guys think about this? Thanks!
Post by
Badguy
Feral DPS isn't about haste AT ALL, considering we already have a 1 second attack speed.
What?
Post by
80642
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Dynamicdruid
Feral DPS isn't about haste AT ALL, considering we already have a 1 second attack speed.
What?
I was just saying how druid kitties don't worry about haste at all because our attack speed is already so low in cat form. We worry about hit, agility, etc.
Post by
Falkor
how you feel about haste depends on your gear level. at lower gear levels you just take it as it comes on gear. once you're hit, crit, expertise, & hard arp capped you can think about it more. OoC can only proc off white hits, more haste = more white hits, so haste isnt useless....its just really low on the priority list. so saying our dps "isnt about haste AT ALL" is a lil extreme.
Post by
5200
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Post by
pelf
I'm pretty sure I love haste and wish there was more on my ArP gear.
Post by
109094
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Post by
pelf
What FaaR said is likely correct. The way it works in Cataclysm is that there will be haste breakpoints where you have enough to add a new tick to the duration. So, the original number of ticks ticks faster until a new tick fits inside the original duration, then you get a new tick. No partial ticks.
Post by
306052
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Post by
311760
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Post by
LookOut
afaik don't some spells end there durations sooner with more haste as opposed to more ticks? Im thinking specfically mages blizzard & hunters aoe spell here (both channeled I'll admit).
That's how it works now. In Cata, it'll benefit from crit and haste innately. It'll also no longer reduce the duration, but instead add additional ticks (in de same duration, so automatically faster ticks ^^). Furthermore, you won't be able to clip dots anymore!
Do consider that I'm not sure if this applies to kitties as well, I'm taking lock dots as an example ...
Edit: I should read more before replying, pelf already said it all -_-
Post by
Aadramelekh
What FaaR said is likely correct. The way it works in Cataclysm is that there will be haste breakpoints where you have enough to add a new tick to the duration. So, the original number of ticks ticks faster until a new tick fits inside the original duration, then you get a new tick. No partial ticks.
Ok to make it a tad more clear for people that *still* don't get what
pelf
said there...
Rake
ticks three times. First tick at 3 seconds, second tick at 6 seconds, last tick at 9 seconds. Only after that last tick may a new Rake be applied. So, for instance, one could fit 60 Rake ticks in a 3 minute cycle.
Now let's say the pussy cat has 10% haste. That means Rake will tick every 2.7 seconds. First tick at 2.7 seconds, second tick at 5.4 seconds, last tick at 8.1 seconds. Now in the same 3 minute cycle this pussy cat can fit 66 Rake ticks. That's 10% more Rake damage for 10% haste.
Moving on to 20% haste. Rake will tick now every 2.4 seconds. First tick at 2.4 seconds, second tick at 4.8 seconds, last tick at 7.2 seconds. Rake is almost 2 seconds shorter than original now. So our pussy cat can fit 75 Rake ticks in the same 3 minute cycle. What do we notice now? 20% haste = 25% more Rake damage. Ooooh O_o
Now let's see about those 'breakpoints' that introduce a new tick. Assuming our pussy cat reaches 25% haste, each tick would happen at 2.25 seconds. Now Rake will finish at 6.75 seconds. But comparing this to the original duration of 9 seconds, we see that there's enough room to fit an additional tick. As such, at 25% haste Rake would gain one additional tick to fit inside the original 9 second duration. Now it will tick
4 (four)
times in 9 seconds instead of three. In a 3 minute cycle, the pussy cat can fit 80 Rake ticks. This is 33.3% more Rake damage for 25% haste.
What we notice here is interesting. The damage from this mechanic for DoT effects seems to scale very well. Above linear. It increases at an increasing rate. The more haste one has, the better it gets. Thigs will be very interesting in Cataclysm, since apparently haste will become a very strong DPS stat compared to its current state today.
Uhm... Sorry for the wall of text, have a nice day ^_^
Post by
LookOut
Uhm... Sorry for the wall of text, have a nice day ^_^
O shush Aadra, you know we love those good ol' walls o' text!
<3
Post by
pelf
Thanks Aa. Sometimes I'm too concise for public consumption :\.
Post by
524425
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Post by
ioptzu
Assuming the cataclysm dot behavior for the cats bleeds would also mean, that you want to refresh the dots just before they end. This is due to the fact, that reapplication only resets the timer when the dot expires and not the tick timer. Similiar to how dot refreshing talents work these days.
Therefore you will have rake and the other bleeds roll the whole time. So you would only loose the very last tick. This will provide a smooth haste scaling and no breakpoints at all.
Source: First point in Changes to Abilities and Mechanics
Post by
curlymon
Aadra! Your haste calcs are off :P
A 10% haste increase would result in 66 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.72 second ticks.
A 20% haste increase would result in 72 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.5 second ticks.
A 30% haste increase would result in 78 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.31 second ticks.
A 33.3% haste increase would result in 80 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.25 second ticks.
A 40% haste increase would result in 84 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.14 second ticks.
etc.
Haste is calculated as an increase in the amount of spells, or ticks, that would happen in the same period of time, rather then the cast time being reduced as you mentioned. In this case every 10% gain results in 6 ticks every 3 mins. The way you math was going you would have have maxed out at 0.00 sec ticks and infinite ticks every 3 mins at 100% haste rather then 1.5 second ticks and 120 every 3 mins. :P
The idea of a haste 'break-point' is that you will only gain that extra tick if your spell if you can fit an extra tick within the original duration (i.e. the duration of the debuff on the boss does not go away with the final tick. If this is indeed the case Rake will not see an additional tick gained until you reach 33.3% haste and 2.25 second ticks (80 ticks per 3 mins). An you will only gain an additional tick every 33.3% haste. If this is in deed the case it would look like the below:
A 10% haste increase would result in 60 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.72 second ticks.
A 20% haste increase would result in 60 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.5 second ticks.
A 30% haste increase would result in 60 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.31 second ticks.
A 33.3% haste increase would result in 80 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.25 second ticks.
A 40% haste increase would result in 80 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.14 second ticks.
etc.
No one knows if the original duration of the spell will adjust to the new tick amount (like an AoE) or if you will have to gain extra ticks at specific break points. Both theories are out there. We shall have to see how it plays out. The break-point theory is what is currently considered to be the reality by EJ for the Boomkin dots but I'm not aware of any numbers for feral bleeds.
Post by
239567
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Post by
Aadramelekh
Aadra! Your haste calcs are off :P
A 10% haste increase would result in 66 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.72 second ticks.
A 20% haste increase would result in 72 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.5 second ticks.
A 30% haste increase would result in 78 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.31 second ticks.
A 33.3% haste increase would result in 80 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.25 second ticks.
A 40% haste increase would result in 84 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.14 second ticks.
Hmmm... Then I misunderstood the way haste works.
Ok so then the concept is that '100% haste' actually means double speed (effectively reduces the cast / tick time to half of its original duration)? If so, then haste would scale up at a decreasing rate. Much like the physical damage reduction function from armor, which is a logarithmic function that tops at 75%. As such I assume that the asymptote for the haste function is at 100% (i.e. 3282 haste rating currently at level 80), at which point the attack speed (or casting time or tick time) is reduced to half its original value. So this way, Rake would cap at 1.5 seconds per tick for 100% haste (half of 3 seconds, the way it normally ticks).
Ok so my calculations of the haste thing were off by about 50% :))
BUT I have to question the second part of the problem:
A 10% haste increase would result in 60 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.72 second ticks.
A 20% haste increase would result in 60 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.5 second ticks.
A 30% haste increase would result in 60 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.31 second ticks.
A 33.3% haste increase would result in 80 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.25 second ticks.
A 40% haste increase would result in 80 ticks per 3 mins @ 2.14 second ticks.
At 33.3% haste (2.25 sec per tick), the original 9 second duration of Rake would be able to accomodate precisely 4 ticks, and thus reaching the 33.3% haste mark would effectively modify Rake by making it tick four times for one application - and thus fitting 80 Rake ticks in 3 minutes. Correct. BUT...
If the ticks happen faster, why would I still have 60 ticks of Rake in 3 minutes, no matter if the haste value is 10, 20 or 30 percent? Since the tick happens faster, at 30% haste (2.31 sec per tick), a full Rake would finish its duration in almost 7 seconds. Wouldn't that mean I would be able to apply another Rake right after the previous one is finished? And as such to be able to fit 77,9 (actually more like 77 rounded down) ticks of Rake in those 180 seconds? What is the point of haste affecting DoT effects if it has no influence on the total amount of damage unless a breakpoint is reached? I mean really... what would be the logic?
My logic suggests exactly this:
Assuming the cataclysm dot behavior for the cats bleeds would also mean, that you want to refresh the dots just before they end. This is due to the fact, that reapplication only resets the timer when the dot expires and not the tick timer. Similiar to how dot refreshing talents work these days.
Therefore you will have rake and the other bleeds roll the whole time. So you would only lose the very last tick. This will provide a smooth haste scaling and no breakpoints at all.
The part about breakpoints seems to also be 'sensitive'. If I remember correctly, Blizzard stated that at certain amounts of haste, if the tick duration is low enough to allow one extra tick fit into the original duration of the spell (i.e. 9 seconds base duration for Rake, 3 sec per tick; at 2.25 sec per tick, 4 ticks can fit into 9 seconds), then that spell would be literally extended by one extra tick for one application. As in at 33.3% haste, one application of Rake would produce 4 ticks instead of just three.
This breakpoint mechanic also has a deeper implication. Up to 33.2% haste, I need 35 energy to produce 3 Rake ticks. When I reach 33.3% haste though, I produce 4 Rake ticks for the same 35 energy. This means not only that the total Rake damage per battle (for instance our 3 minutes test period) will increase, but that the breakpoints would provide nice improvements in the DPE department of DoT effects.
For instance
, up to 33.2% haste, Rake provides 10000 damage in three ticks plus application (3000 per tick, 1000 per application) for 35 energy. That is ~285 DPE. But at 33.3% haste, Rake would provide 13000 damage in
four
ticks plus application for the same energy cost. That means the Rake DPE would increase to ~371. This is a 30% DPE increase. That means not only more total damage from Rake provided by haste reducing the tick time, but also it means that each breakpoint gretly
improves
the DPE of Rake, Rip and Lacerate (for Lacerate we talk about DPR - damage per rage).
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