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Cata: Kitty Dots?
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Post by
curlymon
The problem is that there is no partial ticks allowed and the debuff would stay up for the original duration. If you cannot overwrite the spell then you are effectively limited until the debuff drops off. essentially you have dead space at the end. If I recall this is what currently happens with Corruption and it's haste based glyph.
Wouldn't the new talent that increases rake duration by 6 sec cause the increase in tics to happen much faster?
Using the math given by Curly for this:
5 tics at 1 tic/3 sec 0% haste
5 tics at 1 tic/2.72 sec at 10% haste
6 tics at 1tic/3sec at 20% haste
6 tics at 1tic/2.71 sec at 30%haste
6 tics at 1tic/2.65 sec at 33% haste
7 tics at 1tice/2.98 sec at 40% haste
This causes the haste to stay somewhat linear as well.
Since this is increased by 6, you would see earlier break points yes, though keep in mind that the number of ticks per minute is still the "same".
0% - 60 ticks @ 3 sec
10% - 60 ticks @ 2.727 sec
20% - 72 ticks @ 2.5 sec
30% - 72 ticks @ 2.308 sec
40% - 84 ticks @ 2.143 sec
All this is moot if they adjust duration of the spell to tick length. It is implemented in many different ways currently.
Really the biggest thing I wanted to post was how haste works :P
P.S. - Aadra there is no cap to haste for spell or bleed ticks. The only haste caps you will ever encounter involve the limitation of the gcd. Ticks can be faster then the gcd cap. So you can hit that magic 120 ticks per 3 mins and just keep getting more.
It also is linear in that every 20% you gain 4 more ticks per minute. This is true going from 0 - 20% (20-24 ticks per min) as much as it is from 1000 - 1020% (220 - 224 ticks per min).
Edit: Each break-point is worth the exact same amount of gained damage but it it "less" of a gain in terms of increase tot he spell as a whole each time it crosses a break-point so technically it is like armor.
If they do change it to where the duration is affected by the spell and the duration "reset" every time you crossed a "tick break-point" any point of haste will be a gain. If the tick count stayed at 5 then you would eventually have issues with a haste cap where you find yourself unable to keep rake on target 100% of the time as it would fall off while you are redoing other higher priority buffs so tick count does step.
Post by
pelf
You can refresh it. That was also stated along with the information that there would be no partial ticks and the information that once an extra tick "fits" in the original duration, it would jump back and add that.
When you cast a dot again on a target that already has it, it simply resets it to the maximum duration WITHOUT the loss of ticks. All you lose is the use of the energy you would have accrued if you had waited until the end of the duration and the last tick to refresh it.
Post by
Aadramelekh
0% - 60 ticks @ 3 sec
10% - 60 ticks @ 2.727 sec
20% - 72 ticks @ 2.5 sec
30% - 72 ticks @ 2.308 sec
40% - 84 ticks @ 2.143 sec
OK please enlighten me.
Zero haste: 180 seconds @ 3 seconds per tick gives 60 ticks.
10% haste: 180 seconds @ 2.727 sec per tick gives 60 ticks as well? Why not 66?
20% haste: 180 seconds @ 2.5 sec per tick gives 72 ticks.
30% haste: 180 seconds @ 2.308 sec per tick gives 72 ticks as well? Why not 77?
I simply cannot follow you. Sorry.
Post by
curlymon
0% - 60 ticks @ 3 sec
10% - 60 ticks @ 2.727 sec
20% - 72 ticks @ 2.5 sec
30% - 72 ticks @ 2.308 sec
40% - 84 ticks @ 2.143 sec
OK please enlighten me.
Zero haste: 180 seconds @ 3 seconds per tick gives 60 ticks.
10% haste: 180 seconds @ 2.727 sec per tick gives 60 ticks as well? Why not 66?
20% haste: 180 seconds @ 2.5 sec per tick gives 72 ticks.
30% haste: 180 seconds @ 2.308 sec per tick gives 72 ticks as well? Why not 77?
I simply cannot follow you. Sorry.
With Pelf's clarification it does indeed work as you are expecting it to Aadra.
Rather then having a break point you gain 1 tick every 5% haste (per minute). This poses the difficulty of having a Feral watch a debuff bar with tick marks for each tick and refreshing the debuff between the last tick and before it fades, Ideally refreshed directly after the final tick though. I suspect this will be a common occurance with all classes who use DoTs that are refreshed directly after the final tick.
Post by
pelf
If you want to give up a tiny bit of energy for 100% uptime, you can refresh before it falls off and you
won't lose ticks like you would now
. If not, it's just a matter of watching how long is left and refreshing after the last tick, when it falls off. The benefit of actually getting a real 100% uptime might end up outweighing the small loss of energy refreshing right before it falls off -- I think we'll need real abilities, data and testing to find that out.
So, so far, the data...
Haste effectively decreases the interval between ticks on DoTs.
The original duration of the spell is the most time the spell can ever take to tick out.
As haste increases the duration of the DoT will decrease until...
...your haste has decreased the interval such that an additional tick will fit into the original duration of the spell, you will gain an additional tick -- "haste breakpoint" -- and your spell will once again tick for the original duration, with more ticks.
Re-casting a HoT or DoT (ignoring power levels and overwrite blocking) will extend the duration of the current effect to its maximum for your haste level
without
resetting the tick progression -- or, another way to say it, without resetting the haste "swing".
In live, if you re-cast Renew right before the last tick goes off, you have to wait until the first tick of the new spell goes off before you get a tick, effectively increasing the time before your target receives a tick.
Does that cover it?
Post by
Aadramelekh
That's already been said one way or another. That's what I was assuming as well. So, again, since the ticks simply happen faster, why would it be impossible to fit 66 Rake ticks in three minutes (at 10% haste) instead of just 60 as
curlymon
said?
Simple logic says... (assuming 1000 damage per Rake tick)
-> Zero haste, Rake finishes in exactly 9 seconds. Reapplying Rake immediately after it falls off could theoretically yield 60 ticks in 180 seconds. 20 applications. Rake does 60000 damage for 700 energy.
DPE: 85.71
. Energy consumption:
3.88 en/sec
. Energy regeneration: 10 en/sec.
-> 10% haste, Rake finishes its third (final) tick after exactly 8.181 seconds. Reapplying Rake immediately after it falls off could theoretically yield 66 ticks in 180 seconds. That is to say you get to apply Rake 22 times in the same interval. Rake does 66000 damage for 770 energy.
DPE: 85.71
. Energy consumption:
4.27 en/sec
. But keep in mind that maybe haste will also allow faster energy regen, so 10% haste would probably mean 11 en/sec generation instead of the base 10 en/sec.
-> 20% haste, Rake finishes after 7.5 seconds. Theoretical yield: 72 Rake ticks. 24 Rake applications. 72000 damage for 840 energy.
DPE: 85.71
. Energy consumption:
4.66 en/sec
. Energy regeneration: 12 en/sec assuming haste mechanic.
So far it seems that energy consumption and energy regeneration will increase at the same rate, thus maintaining a balance within the DPS cycle.
33.3% haste means 2.25 sec per tick. Now there's room for four Rake ticks in the original 9 second duration. So Rake effectively becomes a 4-ticks-over-9-seconds bleed effect, according to the mechanic stated by Blizzard. Now you can fit 80 ticks in 180 seconds BUT with the extra bonus of applying Rake only 20 times once again. So you get 80000 damage for 700 energy once again.
DPE: 114.28
- that's a straight 33.3% increase in DPE. We're back to 3.88 en/sec consumption, BUT we are at 13.3 en/sec regeneration.
This breakpoint is of HUGE importance. It increases DPE and takes off the pressure of energy consumption from applying Rake back to its base level of 3.88 en/sec, leaving more energy for Shreds and Ferocious Bites.
But my point was that even BEFORE reaching the breakpoint, logic says that the more haste I have, then the more Rake (and Rip / Lacerate) ticks I can fit into the same time frame. Do you say "yes" or "no" to this logic? This is my dilemma. If you say "no", then you have to explain to me clearly what mechanic stands in the way of this line of reasoning.
Post by
pelf
Yes, I say. You are right. Before the breakpoint, the interaction required to keep it up
increases
as the duration of the DoT decreases
until
the breakpoint where your interaction
goes back
to the original amount and you get the extra tick passively. Rinse, repeat.
I was just summing up with that bulleted list. Like Inigo does in The Princess Bride, on the castle walls.
Post by
curlymon
So, again, since the ticks simply happen faster, why would it be impossible to fit 66 Rake ticks in three minutes (at 10% haste) instead of just 60 as
curlymon
said?
If you want to give up a tiny bit of energy for 100% uptime, you can refresh before it falls off and you
won't lose ticks like you would now
.
Re-casting a HoT or DoT (ignoring power levels and overwrite blocking) will extend the duration of the current effect to its maximum for your haste level
without
resetting the tick progression -- or, another way to say it, without resetting the haste "swing"
I was mistaken as the the effect of the DoT and the method of extention. Read Pelf's comment and other then my correction to the way haste is applied ignore everything else, lol.
Post by
616796
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pelf
Yep. That is true.
Post by
LookOut
But crit will still give us 2 combo points, so not sure if I'll switch from crit to haste.
Time will tell ...
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
LookOut
But crit will still give us 2 combo points, so not sure if I'll switch from crit to haste.
Time will tell ...
and haste will give super fast energy regen, sure its not like our crit rate will suddenly vanish or anything silly like that
Didn't say it would :) Just thinking if we'd start to prefer haste over crit or not. Or maybe we'll balance both stats. Or maybe we'll just take whatever comes our way.
As said, time will tell.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aadramelekh
The way things look now, I am fairly confident that haste will be better than critical strike rating. Agility is a whole different story :)
Post by
curlymon
Hit/Exper > Agi > haste > Mastery > Crit
You are making some crit rating that you lost in your talent tree back fromt hat second line of "kitty" masteries.
Post by
pelf
Can I just say
/cry
about hit/exp being back in that list for us?
/cry
I wonder about the placement of mastery in there though. It has direct effects that are side effects of the other things. I wonder if you can really say where it goes without some real testing with final numbers.
Post by
curlymon
About the mastery placement, it's a guess at best at this point to be honest. I feel it is going to be present in that list in the same sense that SP is present in the Balance prio list. It's not something that you truly try to stack but it is there to represent it's effect on dps compared to other stats as it should only show up on higher end gear and I have a feeling it will be fairly immutable except by moving up half/full tiers gear wise. That might mean that iLvL will be a fair bit more closely tied to effective dps rather then stats...
I don't exactly like that in the end as this means that the GearScore fanatics are gaining a small justification, but meh.
As for a Prio list... you might find points where Haste exceeds Agi due to the ability to add additional fillers inbetween buff/debuff applications, another possible break point if you will...
Crit is sort of a wild card at this time to be honest, but at this point doubt it will ever truly surpass haste for kitties witht he proposed mechanics.
Edit: It seems that you can indeed gem for mastery and it might be a normal stat present on gear...
Gemming choices you are likely to see.
Red:
Agi
Yellow:
Agi/haste
Agi/crit
Agi/mast
haste/hit
crit/hit
mast/hit
Blue:
Agi/hit
Agi/stam
haste/hit
crit/hit
mast/hit
Obviously some of these will not be viable, but until we understand the interrelation of all the stats we won't truly know which.
Post by
pelf
Isn't Mastery as a stat going to only exist on gear and likely only on higher ilvls (or maybe just tier)?
Post by
curlymon
Isn't Mastery as a stat going to only exist on gear and likely only on higher ilvls (or maybe just tier)?
It will be a yellow gem as it stands currently.
Some gem colors have changed! Hit is now blue. Mastery and Dodge are yellow. Intellect is now red. These simple changes have created a much more diverse matrix of gem cuts.
I doubt it was a typo but it possibly have been intended to say expertise... But I'd stick with the quote itself as it has yet to be corrected in some manner.
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