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What are we doing wrong?
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Post by
obiwaynekenobi
For the third week in a row now my Guild's 10-man group has consistently wiped on Saurfang, despite all of us having downed him previously. It's always the same scenario: We blow through Marrowgar (except for the very rare circumstances where someone runs headlong into a patch of fire and dies), we one-shot Deathwhisper, we faceroll the Gunship, and then we get to Deathbringer. And every single time we get him down to about 22% or so, and then people start dying, and he starts getting health, and we're incapable of beating the enrage timer. Every. Single. Week.
We don't have a true "core" group, per se, since we're a casual raiding guild so our basic rule is "first come, first serve" for the raids. This results in slightly different group makeup each which as different people in the guild end up wanting to go.
This week, we had the following:
A, Protection Warrior, 5713GS
B, Protection Pally, 5361GS (me)
C, Demonology 'Lock, 5058GS
D, Elemental Shaman, 5151GS
E, Unholy DK, 5590GS
F, Arcane Mage, 5349GS
G, Blood DK, 4954GS
H, Holy Pally, 5315GS
I, Disc Priest, 4873GS
J, Resto Druid, 5255GS
We brought 3 healers to help with the healing; I would have preferred an extra ranged and I think that is the preferred setup for Saurfang, anyway. We followed all the strategy for Saurfang. Ranged was spread out, melee was behind him, both tanks were in front and we taunted off every Rune. I'm not sure what the issue was, but I think it was that ranged was not killing the Blood Beasts quickly enough and they were getting into melee. We had both DKs using Chains of Ice, I think the Shaman using Earthbind Totem (not sure), and I even would throw a Hammer of Justice every so often when it was off CD to help out. All I know is Saurfang was getting to hit his Mark of the Fallen Champion two and three times during the encounter, and the damage was just too much for the healers. I also noticed that at least twice he would become immune to Hand of Reckoning when I tried to taunt him off the Warrior, so I had to wait a few seconds for it to come off CD and try again.
I have Recount but it consistently gives incorrect results when compared with other people (much lower), however here's what mine shows for the 5th attempt at Saurfang:
Warlock: 5589
Shaman: 4633
Unholy DK: 4212
Mage: 3914
Blood DK: 3599
Pally Tank: 3022
Warr Tank: 1708
I really don't know what the problem is, but this is the third week in a row where we've had good luck, and wipe on Saurfang until everyone gives up. It's frustrating as hell for me because we all know the fights, we've all downed him in the past, and we keep running into these issues. Last week, at least, we had 2-3 people who had never faced him so it was a little more "acceptable" to wipe since we had new folks. But with 10 experienced players, who know their class, who know the fight, there's no excuse to wipe. And I'm at a loss for what happened, and what we can do to fix it.
Does anyone have any tips? Or maybe some insight that I'm missing? I joined what I thought was a casual raiding guild with, and I quote, "wing one of ICC pretty much on farm", except the past month I've been with them we've not gotten past wing one. They're all great people and I love being around them, but I'm... I don't know, disillusioned I guess is the word. I signed up to be a tank in a core raiding group, not wipe consistently on a not-that-hard fight with easy to understand mechanics. If we were wiping on Rotface or Professor I'd be more lenient since those fights require some tricky mechanics.
Post by
Toldu
One thing we had that you don't is a hunter. Frost traps, Misdirection, and fast shots really help when kiting those Blood Beasts.
Post by
41852
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
obiwaynekenobi
It does, thanks. We made a poor choice with three healers, because none of them seemed to have a viable DPS spec (armory tells me the priest has a Shadow spec but I don't know how well geared it is). The final attempt we even tried having the druid switch to Feral to damage Saurfang, but I knew that wouldn't work because the issue wasn't him, it was the beasts.
Here's hoping we have better composition next week. I'm debating if I should speak up when it's closer to next Friday, and say we should have x y and z, but I'm afraid I'll come off rude or something. Like I said the guild is more about "let's give everyone a chance to see it and get some gear" rather than "let's get to Putricide tonight and spend the week working on him", a fact which honestly, if I had known beforehand, probably would have made me look for a different guild.
Post by
Wildhorn
Problem belong to your players skill. Because gearscore and group composition won't do much a difference.
Undergeared
did it in blues with a first come, first serve and always end up with weird group composition. (Should I add they do not use ventrilo?)
Post by
anywherenotes
I agree with Wildhorn. The gear isn't the issue, you're overgeared for it.
You can have your dk chain-slow the adds when they come out while range kills them, at least that's what our tank does (tank dk, not sure how good of an idea it is to use a dps dk for it)
If you're trying same strat, change it up a bit.
Post by
Kelborn
A few things. You need better control on the adds. And better dps on them. My mage is less geared than your mage and he does 2k more dps on that fight. Which means the blood beasts die faster, which means they hit ppl less (well not at all in my guild raids), and Saurfang doesn't get to use MFC. Because he doesn't use MFC the healers have it easy and they don't go oom causing the tanks to die.
It seems to me that you just need better coordination amongst your ranged. I would highly recommend switching out your Disc Priest for a Hunter. A Hunter is invaluable on this fight. They can trap, use Concussive Shot, and when a beast gets close to someone across the room from them... Distracting Shot to make it come all the way back across.
On 10m you only have 2 beasts, so your Mage should be using Slow on one and the Shaman should keep Frostshock on the other. Chains of Ice and Earthbind a good too. Have them focus one down before moving to the other. If needed the mage can Frost Nova and Blink away. It's not that hard to keep the 10 yrds distance to avoid Boiling Blood splash on 10m.
Your healers also need to be on the ball if someone does get MFC. Three healers is very redundant. The Holy Pally and Resto Druid a great combo by themselves. Saurfang doesn't cleave the tanks, so the Holy Pally can Beacon one and go raid heal. When I heal on my Pally I watch for Rune of Blood. I know the tank with the Rune will not be taking damage for a while, so I switch my Beacon of Light to the other tank and continue to heal raid. With more than one MFC up, a Holy Paladin utilizing good Beacon swapping can be a raidsaver. The Resto Druid is strong in and of himself, HoTs are great on this fight.
All in all your major issue is lack of ranged coordination and imbalanced healing.
Post by
552925
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
obiwaynekenobi
I have no idea, honestly. I looked at the meters after the fight and was like... with the 20% buff all the DPS should be at least 6K or more. We even had both DKs pop Army at the start of the fight (it didn't help that I could tell).
I didn't check the logs at the time because I was rather upset and logged after we called it for the night; I don't think there's a way to check logs of previous fights (I've never tried, tbh) so I can't see what the Unholy DK was doing.
Post by
368348
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Kelborn
Oooo I forgot about the 20% buff.
All your dps are pathetic.
People were doing 5k+ DPS in ToC with no +dmg buff.
Post by
NeoBlackheart
I will say in my iCC group I use to do there was 1 just 1 ranged. Now it was hard and we normaly downed him with 2 of the marks out but we did it. We had the ranged tank 1 add and he could kill it solo and the melee would nuke the other one it would be out in like 2 seconds flat if not quicker.that 2 seconds even if absorbing blood from being in melee is much better than having it beating on ranged till they can kill it.
Post by
Jeremypwnz
I went to ICC10 for the first time just yesterday. I truly have no idea what I was doing on the Saurfang fight. I was told to lay a frost trap on the boss about 5 seconds before blood beasts spawn. Me and this warlock would take out one Bloodbeast while a mage and someone else took the other one. All the DPS were above 4k while the warlock and I were reaching towards 6k+ on some fights. I felt that this boss was really easy compared to even Deathwhisper. I have a harder time in HoR on the last spawn.
We even had our 2nd healer die around 50%. Solo healed that fight. Druids OP.
Side note: I got the achievement for under 3 marks and the ring. :D
I hope the group picks up today or tomorrow and continues. I think we would do really good on the upcoming bosses.
Post by
Rubendesmet619
Oooo I forgot about the 20% buff.
All your dps are pathetic.
People were doing 5k+ DPS in ToC with no +dmg buff.
Realy? I did 5k on Ignis 25 with Nax25/Ulduar10 gear ffs. Yes, consistently.(first Ulduar25 experience ^^)
Having 5k DPS in some of the first ToC25 runs would end you under the 10th spot.(Ilv226 geared)
Post by
234288
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rubendesmet619
Oooo I forgot about the 20% buff.
All your dps are pathetic.
People were doing 5k+ DPS in ToC with no +dmg buff.
People were doing 5.5k+ DPS in Naxx, with no buff.
On a 1min 20sec patchkil, think you forgot to add that.
Just like warriors did 7k+....
Because every blood DK gave their CD to him and he's popping hastepots.
Just wanne say we shouldn't compare burst DPS with steady DPS.
Post by
Kelborn
Oooo I forgot about the 20% buff.
All your dps are pathetic.
People were doing 5k+ DPS in ToC with no +dmg buff.
Realy? I did 5k on Ignis 25 with Nax25/Ulduar10 gear ffs. Yes, consistently.(first Ulduar25 experience ^^)
Having 5k DPS in some of the first ToC25 runs would end you under the 10th spot.(Ilv226 geared)
Well seeing how this guy's DPS can't out dps you two content tiers lower while having 20% damage buff... I think they're doing something wrong. My mage was 5k dps in Ulduar as well using just badge gear at the time (heroism and conquest stuff, no valor cuz my mage didn't see naxx25).
The biggest problem this guy has, like I said before, is the beasts are not dieing fast enough it seems which could be causing people to panic and loose their coordination. I'm doing 4k dps on my 4k gs Hunter with half blues right now. Kill the beasts faster and more efficiently and I think the problem is solved. A lot of healers I've pugged with start to panic when MFC gets put on someone... which is funny cuz I think it's one of the easiest things to heal though. At least from a Holy Pally perspective.
Just like warriors did 7k+....
Because every blood DK gave their CD to him and he's popping hastepots.
Don't forget the DW Frost / Unholy Hybrid DKs.
Post by
obiwaynekenobi
Yeah... like I said I don't know if those meters are even accurate. My Recount is almost always different than someone else's even in the same fight, I'm just posting what my meters say; maybe I configured it wrong (I just installed it and forgot about it, honestly, since I'm the tank so Recount means nothing to me). All I know is every week for about a month we go in to ICC10, do great until Saurfang, and then it's a wipefest until we give the run a mercy killing. I have no idea what anyone else in the raid is or isn't doing, because as the tank I'm just focused on Saurfang and watching for DBM to say the other tank has the Rune so I can taunt.
We have geared people who know their class, so the only thing I can imagine is something with their rotations, but I don't play any of their classes to know what their rotation is supposed to be. All I know is I'm getting really annoyed that the guild claimed to have the first wing on farm, and instead we just wipe continually on a fairly easy boss with easy to grok mechanics. I've gotten to Festergut once, and that was on a 25-man with another guild; other than that Saurfang is as far as I've gotten to, although I've beaten him once (and only once) before.
Post by
Kelborn
Tanking Saurfang is retardedly easy. It's also the best fight to be watching your raid. I use a the Target of Target feature in most UIs to check for Rune of Blood. ToT is right next to the boss frame, which is right where I'm looking on my screen to watch the raid. Turn your camera around next time and watch what people are doing. It's the easiest fight in ICC for tanks, so it's the best time for you to help coordinate your raid. If you see your mage getting hit by a beast and you have a hunter on the other side of the room, call it out and tell the hunter to distracting shot the beast. Or have the warlock Searing Pain.
Like I said your main problem is lack of coordination and what seems to be healer panic at Mark of the Fallen Champion. Every time a tank gets hit by Saurfang the marked person takes about 3.5k, mitigated by armor. Even when he frenzies, this should be cake for your Holy Pally.
If you're using vent, like you should, don't watch the door and wait for DBM to yell at you. Turn your camera around, watch Target of Target (I see it there first anyway before I ever notice debuffs on DBM, even stacked stuff like on Toravon), and help coordinate your raid. If you can get the ranged to work together at killing the beasts, they should go down in no time. The faster they go down without hitting anyone, the slower Saurfang gets blood power, and the faster / easier it is for you to down him.
Replacing your priest with a hunter would also be a good idea.
Also I noticed you said in your OP that Saurfang sometimes is Immune to Hand of Reckoning... you do realize that you have another taunt, right? Ya know, Righteous Defense? He does that for me on Dark Command sometimes... Death Grip doesn't add threat but it does give me time to get him off the other tank while waiting for taunt to come off cd. But you have two true taunts. If one misses or he's immune for some reason, use the other.
Post by
240282
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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