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Jaina and varian?
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Post by
358417
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Post by
Adamsm
The Alliance and Horde Player guides, the second edition of the Core Rules. The only book she is mentioned in is the Lands of Conflict, in a small subsection of the Zul'Aman/Ghostlands/Eversong Woods area.
Post by
Rankkor
And you my friend, are hard headed, I've already stated which RP book it came from, and that you find references to the neutrality all through out the book... so yeah, whatever. Enjoy being 'right' Fojar38, as that seems to be all that matters to you. Salute, your not worth the time 'discussing'(read as it truly is,
you argue and insult all of us
).
ever since he came back, all he does is preach about his ideas, and insulting those who don't see eye-to-eye with him.
To him, anyone who's not imidietly saying "yes yes" to what he says is a blind/biased/wrong/idiot/hypocrite person......
tsk tsk tsk.
look pal, it's late, my baby just woke up and she's crying, so I'ma gonna go ahead and leave you to your rantings, I got better stuff to do than trying to reason with someone who (despite having recieved a warning by the site's main admin) still refuses to let go of the personal atacks.
so, whatever.............
/cares.
Post by
358417
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Post by
denjerre
Quests aren't alwyas lore, you know. We have a quest to kill Onyxia, but she's already dead in lore. The killing of Theramore soldiers might as well flow from the hotheadedness of a Horde soldier, not because of Theramore's neutrality.
And that Blood Elf wasn't a Blood Elf, nor a pirate. He was the last survivor of a trade fleet attacked by the overagressive Humans of Northwatch, who are barley aligned to Thermore.
Post by
358417
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Post by
Adamsm
The Alliance and Horde Player guides, the second edition of the Core Rules. The only book she is mentioned in is the Lands of Conflict, in a small subsection of the Zul'Aman/Ghostlands/Eversong Woods area.
Are we referring to Jaina being neutral?
Because she isn't. She attempts to reclaim Capital City alongside Varian.
That was for the quote you used. Jaina herself doesn't pick fights if she can help it. And while she did go to the battle of the Undercity to try to get the killers of Bolvar, she wasn't there to reclaim the city... even though, her Theramore people do have a claim on it. She was along to keep watch on Varian and keep him from doing something rash; such as attacking Thrall and Sylvanas(with Saurfang approaching), don't forget, as soon as she saw what was going to happen, she teleported Varian and us away, to keep true open war from starting.
Yes, she is part of the Alliance, but she, like Velen, is trying for peace; and Theramore was chosen for the peace treaty site because of her known non-warmonger ways and the fact that peace is all she wants(again, a neutral ground for both Varian and Thrall).
This whole 'discussion' is steaming from what I said about what would happen; as it stands now, Theramore is the leader of the Western Alliance forces, which includes the Night Elves and the Draenei. If she ever became the mate to Thrall, her people would revolt and go to the Eastern Alliance to 'rejoin' it and make life a living hell for Thrall and their ex-mistress.
No where in this thread, or any other thread, have I ever said that Jaina wasn't a member of the Alliance.
The Onyxia quests were lore until they were retconned in the comics.Actually, any of the kill quests are seen outside of the Lore, unless an event such as what happened in the comics occurs; where an actual Lore figure deals with a big bad.
Post by
358417
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Post by
denjerre
Quests aren't alwyas lore, you know. We have a quest to kill Onyxia, but she's already dead in lore. The killing of Theramore soldiers might as well flow from the hotheadedness of a Horde soldier, not because of Theramore's neutrality.
They're lore until shown to be otherwise. The Onyxia quests were lore until they were retconned in the comics.
And that Blood Elf wasn't a Blood Elf, nor a pirate. He was the last survivor of a trade fleet attacked by the overagressive Humans of Northwatch, who are barley aligned to Thermore.
I'm not referring to the one in Ratchet. (Northwatch Hold is Theramore though. It's manned by Theramore Marines.)
Portion 1; They're a renegade faction of Theramore. They wear the name because they see themselves as doing the right thing. Jaina wouldn't approve of them shooting at any bypassers, so they're a different faction on their own. This
will
, however, change when Cataclysm comes out and they become an acknowlegded Alliance faction fighting against the Horde.
Portion 2;
Neither am I
. Blue eyse; High Elf.
Post by
Adamsm
I'm not sure that's why she was there. She was fully aware of Varian's intentions of reclaiming the capital and yet she still went.Then, we'll have to agree to disagree; Jaina has never been about expansion and reclaiming after all.
We're coming back to this; Theramore is not neutral groundThen what would you call it? It was a location where both leaders could meet, have the event mediated by Jaina, and both sides agreed to not bring weapons into the rooms. I think you have a different definition of Neutral then I do; for me, it is a location where people can go without worrying that your enemy is going to kill you and back stab you(of course that was broken by an evil group but hey, you can't control everything).
In fact, in the comics most of the soldiers sided with Varian over Garona it looks like.If that was true, then why did they listen to their leader when she ordered them to put Garona into the dungeon and not hand her over to Varian? Because, they trust there monarch and leader who has been there for them through thick and thin. Heck, as you like to cite quests as proof of lore; look at the Deserter quests in Theramore itself; thought the renegade Kul Tiras forces try to turn her men against her, the commanders and the soldiers merely laugh at them and help you capture them and deal with them. If the people really 'disliked' Jaina like your claiming, then why did they put in so much effort to protect her good name and keep her as the leader?
Ditto for this. Although they have a leadership position in the Western Alliance, from the comic it appears that most of Jaina's people would place their trust in Varian over Jaina, and in Cataclysm, it looks like they DO./shrug, I haven't seen that stuff yet, so I'll have to wait and see(note, I hate spoiler threads, I do my best to avoid them, I want to see this stuff for myself). I don't really see Theramore soldiers more willing to follow Varian, as Stormwind hasn't done much for the Alliance port city lately(note, again, lately, as in pre-Cataclysm events). Unless there is going to be a massive retcon to suddenly make her people hate her.... I still see them following the woman who has kept them alive, who lead them away from the Scourge, who lead them at Hyjal and did her best to keep her people alive when her father made his mad head long charge against Durotar, as opposed to the King of Stormwind, who wasn't there for those events due to problems within his own lands.
Post by
585087
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Post by
358417
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Post by
Adamsm
We're coming back to this; Theramore is not neutral ground. In fact, in the comics most of the soldiers sided with Varian over Garona it looks like.
Or it could be because Garona is a known assassin and a king slayer on top of that, which is not something people with a monarch are fans of. The actions taken seem more out of the person present instead of the entire race of orcs.
Actually, other then Varian, no one else should have recognized her; most of the world thought she was dead since the end of the First War as she vanished at some point during the fall of Stormwind, after Doomhammer nearly beat her to death to get the information about the Shadow Council so he could finish them off. I love Garona, I do(she has been a favorite since I picked up the Last Guardian), but I think the comics screwed up having nearly everyone 'know' who she was, especially as the people of Theramore are all more or less Lordaeron people, not Stormwind.
Post by
358417
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Post by
Adamsm
Temporarily allowing an opposing faction leader into your city does not make that city neutral ground. The G8 summit is coming to Huntsville, Ontario. Does that make Huntsville neutral ground?Technically, yes. We know there will still be fights there, but the feuding parties are meant to play nice while there. Again, we obviously have two different ideas about what neutral is, so let it drop already, I don't want to argue with you Fojar, it does nothing constructive.
The fact that Theramore likely becomes high on Garrosh's hitlist when he takes the helm of the Horde (He didn't even go to the summit because he was interested in peace; he just wanted to survey its defenses.) will likely play a large part in it.
And while Jaina led them away from the Scourge, it's Varian who led the Alliance to Northrend itself and ended the Lich King, as well as working to free Lordaeron from the Forsaken's grasp.
Combine this with the fact that desertion is a problem and the Horde has been breathing down their necks since day one, I wouldn't be surprised if they're completely fed up with Jaina's pacifism, especially when it clearly isn't working.Not denying the first, I can see Garrosh attacking Theramore. Gonna deny the second, that would be like expecting the people of Stormwind to suddenly taking Jaina's word over Varian's if she saved the king from something big and nasty; loyalty is earned and not given after all. Also, technically Varian and Garrosh hold the gates; the person who ends the threat of the Lich King was Tirion and the brave adventures with him... so unless your saying everyone is suddenly following him, might want to rethink that point.
Third point... we'll have to wait and see, but I don't see her people turning on Jaina now without a really bad retcon; I can see her fighting back against Garrosh(as that's not the actual Horde she had her truce with, with Thrall at the head). And before you jump on that comment; that is in established lore there is a truce between Jaina and Thrall, that neither side is open war, but there is conflict along the borders and that those on both sides want open war again. But as I've said in other threads; that truce won't extend to Garrosh, she's seen some of what he will do(Broken Front, Violet Citadel, and the Tourney), and the Lady of Theramore won't roll over for a brown skinned orc.
And again, this is seriously off topic; you want to discuss Jaina and how she'll change,
try this thread
, as this thread was pretty much answered on the first page, and really didn't need to keep going; because again, it's meant to be a thread about a possible hook up between Varian and Jaina, not which leader is better then the other.
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358417
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583571
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306612
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159454
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