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Jaina and varian?
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Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Sure, but I didn't see any evidence that they would discriminate based on nationality. Nobody does that in lore. Not even the Humans.Anyone from the Syndicate(aka Alterac) would disagree with you there, same with some of the 'darker' Horde clans.
World of Warcraft, Campaign setting, several different passages about it's neutrality and like you yourself, said, the peace meetings occur there.
Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
World of Warcraft, Campaign setting, several different passages about it's neutrality and like you yourself, said, the peace meetings occur there.
Peace meetings occurring there doesn't make it neutral ground.
In Cataclysm
, Theramore is sending tanks into the Barrens.
The reason they occur there is because it's always the Alliance that proposes the peace summit. If Thrall proposed one and the meeting was at the Crossroads, does that make the Crossroads neutral territory?
And again, the citizenry of Theramore would disagree with you. In the comics, there were guards who disapproved of imprisoning Garona because they felt that Varian should just kill her. Hell, Jaina's pacifist policy gave Theramore a problem with desertion, and Stormwind had to bail her out.Note the Bold; that's 5 years after the time frame of the books; and the only reason it's happening is because it's Garrosh instead of Thrall in command of the Horde more then likely.
Anyone from the Syndicate(aka Alterac) would disagree with you there, same with some of the 'darker' Horde clans.
Alright then, let me rephrase; anyone who isn't villainous doesn't really discriminate based on nationality./shrug, You did ask. There's lots of classism in Warcraft though; Council of Nobles, the royals, and all the rest.
Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Point 2: It's documented in the Role-Playing Game books; Theramore is one of the few places on Kalimdor that Horde and Alliance can meet under a flag of truce and not be killed.
both you and fojar are right at the same time, and at the same time wrong.
pre-cataclysm Theramoore is indeed a neutral ground, heck on lore even orgrimmar welcomes humans and other alliance races like dwarves or elves as long as they A: contribute to the city while they remain there, and don't cause any problems.
in the book Cicle of Hatred is stated that orcs can conduct trading businesses in theramoore, and while Jaina's policy of peace has caused some desertion on the ranks, most of theramoore is 100% loyal to jaina and her act of non-agression with the horde.
in-game all of theramoore is flagged as alliance NPC's thus hostile to the horde, but lorewise, theramoore and orgrimmar have a non-agression treaty, in wich if theramoore doesn't atack the horde, and the horde does't atack theramoore, both sides co-exist peacefully.
there are some horde quests to kill theramoore agents but these are the spies who are spying the horde outpost in the area, and the quest to rescue some blood elf prisoners from theramoore. In other words, these soldiers trew the first stone and thus dug their own grave. Under regular circunstances, there are no atacks made between horde and theramoore forces.
however fojar does have a small point in the post-cataclysm Theramoore.
post-cataclysm theramoore sends many tanks to dustwallow marsh and barrens since Garrosh has all but nulified the non-agression treatie jaina and thrall signed.
while under thrall's command, the horde never atacked theramoore and thus theramoore never atacked the horde, but since garrohs' takeover, that changed and in cataclysm sadly theramoore no longer is neutral. Neither in lore nor in-game.
Point 3: /shrug, Not arguing with you, no point.
^this.
Post by
Adamsm
Note the Bold; that's 5 years after the time frame of the books; and the only reason it's happening is because it's Garrosh instead of Thrall in command of the Horde more then likely.
You ignored ALL THE OTHER EVIDENCE I provided. Nice.
Fact is, Theramore isn't neutral. It's leader is a pacifist, but it's still full fledged Alliance.
I didn't ignore anything; as it stands now, it is neutral ground for peace talks and the like. It's changing come Cataclysm... I did not deny that. Also, when I spoke about Theramore going back to the Alliance, I meant they would return to the Eastern Alliance forces, instead of being the head quarters for the Western Alliance due to their leader betraying them all by mating with an orc. Here's a thought; instead of putting words in people's mouths, you look at what we post, stop being so aggressive, and acting like you know more then the rest of us, we have access to the same information you do.
Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
You're wrong until you quote the source. Then we can discuss it......Uh huh, and yet, you've gone by in-game mechanics, which do not, have not, will never equal actual lore.... so stalemate, as I'm not arguing with you, as there is no point.
It's not just "changing" come Cataclysm; it was never neutral ground. Peace talks being held there does not make it neutral ground.That's... just amusing, it really is; a peace talk, by it's nature, is almost always held on neutral ground you know... wow, just wow, way to think before you posted lol.
Post by
Josren
We all have access to similar information, some even more so that others if you have the now out of print RP books. I have a whole bookshelf worth of lore, and in no less than 2 books Theramore is neutral ground, where Orcs and Humans comingle. The population is more human though, so the Alliance presence is a bit more... Apparent. In game Blizzard decided to make it an Alliance quest hub for whatever reason, and allowed Jaina to be a "raid boss" of sorts, which is just a mistake. Any Horde members who decided to slay Lady Proudmore would quickly find themselves under the heel of Thrall's boot, lorewise anyhow.
A marriage between Varian and Jaina wouldn't seem likely as they have never shown any interest to be honest, Varian still pines for his wife, and Jaina never really recovered from Arthas' betrayal. As for Thrall and Jaina, as much as it would further the cause of peace, there are too many detractors on either side for it to be seriously considered. Even from the Tauren, Margatha would never stand for it, it would most likely be the straw that broke the camels back in the delicate situation of the Tauren Nation.
TL;DR: Theramore is neutral, as neither side is overwhelmingly found of the city. The Horde distrust Humans innately, and the Alliance distrusts Jaina for "abandoning" them before the Third War. Varian and Jaina have too much baggage to move on to anything beyond friendship at this point in their lives.
Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
And you my friend, are hard headed, I've already stated which RP book it came from, and that you find references to the neutrality all through out the book... so yeah, whatever. Enjoy being 'right' Fojar38, as that seems to be all that matters to you. Salute, your not worth the time 'discussing'(read as it truly is, you argue and insult all of us).
Post by
Dralas
Keep it civilized people.
I've read a rather large amount of debates that have gone down this exact path and the thread has been locked.
Let's not do that, shall we?
Oh, and don't expect me to responding to this particular post, nor any posts regarding the topic since I'm just monitoring.
Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
It's called the World of Warcraft Manual, Campaign Settings; that's the name of the book....
Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
I wouldn't call it a full on retcon, as it's just one thing that wasn't used in game in the first place; there is a lot of good things out of the books that never made it into the game, which is a massive pity... also, this topic is way off topic itself heh.
Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
I wouldn't call it a full on retcon, as it's just one thing that wasn't used in game in the first place; there is a lot of good things out of the books that never made it into the game, which is a massive pity... also, this topic is way off topic itself heh.
Something that old, especially something so old that it has a large number of things contradicting it including everything in WoW is generally either retconed or not canon. Consider Metzen's words regarding Finnall Goldensword, who the RPG books stated was Daelin's illegitimate daughter:
"I’m sure this will be controversial, but I don’t necessarily consider her canonical, and based on that we haven't really had any plans of leveraging her in the future. Uh, I think she appeared in one of the rpg books, but you know she's just not a character I have thought about, so at this point I don't really know if we are going to do much with her."
The same thing could apply to the RPG books saying that Theramore is neutral, especially considering everything else we know about Theramore is that it's full fledged Alliance, to the point where Horde have quests to kill Theramore soldiers.
The books themselves say the same thing about her though. But again, this is going even farther off topic.
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