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Holy plate itemisation.
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Post by
PKainus
Optimal does not mean that anything else is equal to 0. My optimal girl would be Summer Glau, does that mean I should not go for any other girl because I can't get Summer? Similarly, does that mean I should not go for any other plate because I can't get haste+mp5?So you're saying that it's okay for a Marks hunter to gem agility instead of arp, because it's still not 0? If you want to be in a casual guild and play the game casually, then I can understand. However, if you're in a serious raiding guild, it's just not acceptable (in my opinion) to have that attitude. I'm not saying to
not
go after plate pieces (4 pieces are our BiS, arguably 3), but I'm saying that it's best to go outside of plate for half of your gear.
Haste > MP5 > Crit. MP5 / haste and crit / haste pieces will always be better than crit / MP5 pieces of the same ilevel. The only BiS crit / MP5 piece are the heroic leggings off VD, and even still a lot of people argue that the crafted cloth ones are better.
Can we heal in full plate? Absolutely, yes. Can a ret paladin DPS without agi gear? Absolutely, yes.
Can they both be better if they go outside of these bounds? Absolutely, yes.
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Post by
Raleandris
If a holy pal can get by on <300 mp/5 and not run out mana on a long fight like say, heroic saurfang
How exactly is Heroic Saurfang a long fight? On a truly lengthy fight (like Heroic LK, and Putricide, for example) your base mp5 will be felt. I'm not saying crit is a BAD stat, but it's hardly one we want to stack. It's unreliable, it's mana regen is inferior point for point compared to mp5 and it tends to come on gear with mp5 instead of haste.
You keep talking about using Plea, but why on do you want to eat that 50% healing reduction? More mp5 means less plea is needed = more overall healing.
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228908
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Post by
PKainus
Oh and don't forget Seal of Wisdom has a chance to restore mana at a healthy chance per swing, fights like Sindragosa and Prof I stand in the melee.Really? You stand in melee on Sindragosa? I guess the "garbage" healers use Divine Plea and regen during flight phase. Have fun eating potential tail smashes and getting Chilled to the Bone stacks when it isn't necessary.
You stand in melee for Professor? So you follow the boss around and melee it in P3? You must get carried in your guild since you can't heal as much while you're
chasing the boss down
. Unless you're not doing it heroic yet... in which case I don't really care what you say, anyway.
Basing your gear around the concept that you can melee the boss for mana on
some
fights is absolutely ridiculous. Sorry, but it is.
Post by
Ronninn
Seriously guys, how many of you actually run out of mana during a boss fight?
I run out of mana often actually. i have pretty damn good gear (264's+277's) and i know how to manage my CD's. But the problem is DP spells death for tanks in alot of hardmode fights except the easiest ones (marrowgar, LDW, tank healing wise). And on hard fights? dont even think about using DP with ALL your CD's up. Festergut hits our tank for 30k every swing at 0 stacks, yeah let me DP through that, not to mention the heavy raid damage going out. DP with a single CD up is not viable in hard modes, but at the same time, having faster heals is always better than heals that crit more often. That's why haste/mp5 is labled BiS. Becasue for hard modes its whats optimal, for normal modes you could go in full 245 crit/mp5 pieces and still come out ok.
Post by
skribs
So you're saying that it's okay for a Marks hunter to gem agility instead of arp, because it's still not 0? If you want to be in a casual guild and play the game casually, then I can understand. However, if you're in a serious raiding guild, it's just not acceptable (in my opinion) to have that attitude. I'm not saying to not go after plate pieces (4 pieces are our BiS, arguably 3), but I'm saying that it's best to go outside of plate for half of your gear.
You're taking my point out of context. I will still gem my paladin's gear to the best. But if the "optimal" gear isn't available, my choices are downgrade to mail, whine about it, or accept gear that is still pretty good but isn't "optimal." My gear has intellect - our most powerful stat. It also has SP, and I am at the soft cap, meaning I'm choosing between our two weakest stats, one of which is likely to lead to overhealing and the other which will help my already-fine mana pool. I don't need to downgrade to mail, so I don't see a point in doing so. I also don't see a reason to whine when I'm doing just fine in raids. So I accept the gear.
Ronnin, you may be using your CDs, but are you using them right? You seem against DP, and I was once with you. The problem isn't that you never use DP, it's that you should use it smart. Use it early - any time you're below 75% is an opportunity to (rather than go OOM and then worry about it). Any time there's a lull and you're close, melee the boss and get some mana back. Any time there's an extended lull (Festergut 1-2 stacks, Putricide after green ooze, Marrowgar after bone storm, after a change
from
Keleseth to another prince) use DP. Call it out to the other healers "DP up" so they know the tank is vulnerable.
I was thinking about this post yesterday, though, and I came to this conclusion: Min/maxing the Paladin may seem nice, but in reality once you've hit the minimums you have (for the most part) pretty much capped everything, and more gear or more optimal gear is really just making your job easier. There are a few cases where this isn't true, but for the most part if your mana pool buffed is at least 37k, your heals will be overhealing some 95% of the time and you should have enough mana to work with. As long as you have >500 haste (cap is 676, but shortly after starting raiding I had in the 500-600 range until I could get some haste drops) you'll be able to react quick enough.
We can argue all we want, but what separates a good paladin from a great paladin isn't the fact that you may have 100 more MP/5 and I've got 5% more crit. It isn't the fact that I may have a little more armor than you because I chose armor class over moving from weakest stat to second weakest. What
does
make the difference is good use of cooldowns and knowing who to heal.
I don't think you're a bad Paladin. My only gripe is that for going for full plate I get scolded by you for not being optimal. I have the primary stats (int, haste, SP) up to acceptable levels and I don't see a point where I'm having problems as a result of my lesser stats (crit/MP5) not being at an optimal balance. If I do run OOM, it's not because I don't have MP5 - it's because I wasn't paying attention and didn't use my mana-based cooldowns. Someone earlier (on another page, or else I'd quote it) said something like "It doesn't matter what we min/max here, because the experienced will keep doing their thing." So when you look at arguments like:
676 haste and stop or stack haste?
MP5 > Crit or Plate > Mail?
Stack Int 100% vs. Stack Int to X mana and then stack Y stat?
The argument then becomes a lot of preference. I think we'll all agree that Int is the most powerful source of regen, so we'll all agree on "Stack Int." Whether or not to continue stacking past X is a matter of preference. Now that your regen is fine, do you want throughput? Or do you want to make regen even less of an issue?
MP5 > Crit or Plate > Mail? I covered this already.
We'll also all agree that 676 haste is the soft cap. We'll also agree that HL is our most powerful ability, and haste can further help it. However, I stopped at 677 (as close as perfect as I can get) while another poster here says he continues to stack it. I don't think it really matters either way - he's going to be better when casting HL or meleeing for SoW, but I'm going to not waste the stat points when casting FoL during lulls or when refreshing bacon/SS/judgement.
Post by
slasher0161
Optimal does not mean that anything else is equal to 0. My optimal girl would be Summer Glau, does that mean I should not go for any other girl because I can't get Summer? Similarly, does that mean I should not go for any other plate because I can't get haste+mp5?
So you're saying that it's okay for a Marks hunter to gem agility instead of arp, because it's still not 0?
If you want to be in a casual guild and play the game casually, then I can understand. However, if you're in a serious raiding guild, it's just not acceptable (in my opinion) to have that attitude. I'm not saying to
not
go after plate pieces (4 pieces are our BiS, arguably 3), but I'm saying that it's best to go outside of plate for half of your gear.
Haste > MP5 > Crit. MP5 / haste and crit / haste pieces will always be better than crit / MP5 pieces of the same ilevel. The only BiS crit / MP5 piece are the heroic leggings off VD, and even still a lot of people argue that the crafted cloth ones are better.
Can we heal in full plate? Absolutely, yes. Can a ret paladin DPS without agi gear? Absolutely, yes.
Can they both be better if they go outside of these bounds? Absolutely, yes.
Just wanted to point this out in big blatant text here because it is a terrible choice of sermon to back up your point. For MM hunters they change specs to a arp spec at around 450 - 500 arp but they won't gem for it till they can either
A) soft cap (if you don;t know what that is i won't waste peoples time explaining)
B) when they can just about hard cap through gems (so around 1000 worth pre gems)
Even then the gains from arp gems over agi gems are only marginally better, if you don't believe me feel free to do your own research.
TL;DR Use better analogies to back your stuff up.
nothing personal just annoyed me seeing a blatant misconception used as supporting evidence
Post by
Raleandris
@Skribs: Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that you are not doing HM ICC25? While your whole philosophy of using mana cooldowns "when there's a lull" works in normal modes, there are far less safe times to use DP in heroics. Therefore, we want to minimize the requirement of DP, therefore, we stack mp5. The fact is, as another poster mentioned above, you could walk into ICC25 in mostly 245 crit/mp5 gear and still be able to heal it (especially with 20% buff), so really, gear however you want for normal modes, but be ready to pick it up for heroics.
Post by
Rouen
Considering that during HL spam you're getting over half the mana regen from illumination via crit that you would have gotten for the same itemization in MP/5, and that your intellect provides more regen than either anyway, I'm not too worried about having crit.
You know... this might be a good addition to the my intellect sticky. I compare intellect stacking versus Crit/Mp5, but I never pitted Crit & Mp5 directly against each other regarding holy paladin regeneration.
Any thoughts?
Oh yeah, I shouldn't derail the thread, eh?
Optimal does not mean that anything else is equal to 0. My optimal girl would be Summer Glau, does that mean I should not go for any other girl because I can't get Summer? Similarly, does that mean I should not go for any other plate because I can't get haste+mp5?
^ This. PKainus' stance has been hardline when it came to gearing priorities. In this case, it's pretty clear cut: Haste/MP5 or GTFO and Not Optimal = Fail
If you're in a guild that will favor giving mail to shammys over holy paladins, then holy paladins will be one of the last raiders in the guild to obtain BiS (if you're a guild that can obtain that level of gear) or get gear as "optimal" as possible.
You don't need "optimal" or BiS to raid or even hardmodes, but you also can't be dumb when attempting hard modes and just stack Crit/Haste/SP plate either. My holy paladin has primarily Crit/Haste plate because of law of scarcity, RNG, and lots of ele/resto shamans that jump in and out of raids. I'd love to have dual Solace of the Defeated's, but not having them doesn't mean I'm unable to perform my function.
Post by
Brique
Question:
How many times can you directly blame your piece of *insert stat* gear for causing you to fail an encounter? I don't mean to sound like some vapidly blatant LOL SKILL > GEAR moron, but I'm getting at something here. I'll form some sort of opinion about this.
How often do you wipe because your heal was some marginal percentage off from keeping a tank alive? How often do you actually find yourself scraping the absolute bottom for mana? I've seen hardmode content when it was valid. (Faction first ToGC 25 clear. Not that amazing.) I definitely did scrape the dregs of my mana pool, but it was because of poor play. It wasn't my gear, it was misjudging heals and having my fellow tank healer bite the dirt on his own mistake. If I'd played better, I'd have less of a problem. I'm quick to blame human error well before arbitrary stats. That "room for improvement" crap actually does exist, and not only on bad report cards. I didn't have ideal stats or gear, and I never freaking will. (Hi stupid ^&*!ing 232 shield that I still have.) I don't think this game is ever intended to have BiS characters except as a pretty lofty bragging point. Hardmode content has its hard points for success in the form of berserks, enrages, etc., but a holy paladin's "enrage" is happening every two seconds unless we do something about it. At that point it's spell choice and timing that take a huge leap above stats we've acquired.
I'm still sounding like a LOL SKILL > GEAR moron. There's definitely wrong ways to gear, but topping off a tank isn't a finite thing. What people are arguing is some certain way of gearing being righter-er than another.
I'm tired of thinking. My gear isn't how I play. I'll leave it at that.
Post by
PKainus
I've played a hunter since a week after WoW came out, and I perfectly understand the mechanics of armor penetration. It's a clear analogy, and if you don't understand it, it's because you don't understand the mechanics and optimal gearing choices of both the Paladin and Hunter. If a high-end Hunter (marks, obviously, considering Surv is hardly even
viable
anymore) is gemming agility,
they are doing it wrong
, just like how if a Paladin is gearing for crit/haste (or crit/MP5) over haste/MP5,
they are doing it wrong
.
Yeah, gearing optimal "only makes the job easier", but what do you think gear is for, anyway? Paladins are the least gear dependent healer in the entire game, but there's a reason why we theorycraft and a reason why you gear optimally instead of choosing not to because other gear is still "good". I can heal ICC hardmodes in straight 245s perfectly fine, but I don't, because 277/264 gear
makes my job easier
.
You can argue with me all you want and say the points are controversial, but they really aren't. Haste / MP5 items will always be superior to anything else. Always. Except on VD (because it's hard, right?).
Post by
PKainus
Oh and to this:
You know... this might be a good addition to the my intellect sticky. I compare intellect stacking versus Crit/Mp5, but I never pitted Crit & Mp5 directly against each other regarding holy paladin regeneration.I've already posted it in a thread somewhere. On a 25 HLPM, 10 FoLPM, 2 HSPM, one crit is worth about 0.2 MP5, or 40% the value of MP5. The above is fairly typical on any fight that requires movement. Moral of the story, MP5 > crit always for mana regen.
Post by
Pezwar
Optimal does not mean that anything else is equal to 0. My optimal girl would be Summer Glau, does that mean I should not go for any other girl because I can't get Summer? Similarly, does that mean I should not go for any other plate because I can't get haste+mp5?
So you're saying that it's okay for a Marks hunter to gem agility instead of arp, because it's still not 0?
If you want to be in a casual guild and play the game casually, then I can understand. However, if you're in a serious raiding guild, it's just not acceptable (in my opinion) to have that attitude. I'm not saying to
not
go after plate pieces (4 pieces are our BiS, arguably 3), but I'm saying that it's best to go outside of plate for half of your gear.
Haste > MP5 > Crit. MP5 / haste and crit / haste pieces will always be better than crit / MP5 pieces of the same ilevel. The only BiS crit / MP5 piece are the heroic leggings off VD, and even still a lot of people argue that the crafted cloth ones are better.
Can we heal in full plate? Absolutely, yes. Can a ret paladin DPS without agi gear? Absolutely, yes.
Can they both be better if they go outside of these bounds? Absolutely, yes.
Just wanted to point this out in big blatant text here because it is a terrible choice of sermon to back up your point. For MM hunters they change specs to a arp spec at around 450 - 500 arp but they won't gem for it till they can either
A) soft cap (if you don;t know what that is i won't waste peoples time explaining)
B) when they can just about hard cap through gems (so around 1000 worth pre gems)
Even then the gains from arp gems over agi gems are only marginally better, if you don't believe me feel free to do your own research.
TL;DR Use better analogies to back your stuff up.
nothing personal just annoyed me seeing a blatant misconception used as supporting evidence
Let's look at this a bit more in detail...
For MM hunters they change specs to a arp spec at around 450 - 500 arp but they won't gem for it till they can either
A) soft cap (if you don;t know what that is i won't waste peoples time explaining)
B) when they can just about hard cap through gems (so around 1000 worth pre gems)
soft cap
around 1000 worth pre gems
See, PK when you say If a high-end Hunter (marks, obviously, considering Surv is hardly even viable anymore) is gemming agility, they are doing it wrong What you're really doing is spreading misinformaion. You don't stack ArP until you're ready to. You don't stack Mp5 until you're ready to. As has been said, you could walk in in full 245 poorly optimized gear and rolfl-spam your way through normal ICC, especially with the 20% buff. It's silly to think otherwise. Does someone who only raids normal ICC need to worry about stacking haste / mp5? No. Not at all. Will they need to when / if they're ready? Possibly, depeneding upon their mana needs and what content their guild / raid is doing. Stating otherwise is just plain silly.
You cant throw blanket statements like "Always stack mp5 / haste or urdoinitwrong" out, because people will read it, misinterpret it, and then things get out of control. Soon we'll have "LF pally heals ToC 10! Must have 676 haste, 500 mp5, and a 5.7k GS! Pst Achieve" Spammed in trade chat, and no one really wants that, do they?
Post by
PKainus
See, PK when you say If a
high-end Hunter
(marks, obviously, considering Surv is hardly even viable anymore) is gemming agility, they are doing it wrong What you're really doing is spreading misinformaion. You don't stack ArP until you're ready to. You don't stack Mp5 until you're ready to. As has been said, you could walk in in
full 245
poorly optimized gearMy bad, I thought high-end meant 277/264 (currently the
high-end content
) gear, not 245 gear. But no, you're right, I'm "spreading misinformation", even though everything I've said so far is (as has been) proven by a mathematical equation or theorycraft.
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