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Various Pros and Cons of the Races
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Post by
Adamsm
Well, not you Rank, but another user who feels the Horde are superior in every way shape and form, and they'll fall apart without a certain leader. I know Varian has an Orc problem(not the Horde, the Orcs and the Forsaken); but as he's seen it now, I can't see the Black Flight using the same technique on him again, especially after what happened with Onyxia.
Post by
Rankkor
I can't see the Black Flight using the same technique on him again, especially after what happened with Onyxia.
meh, diverging opinions, Stormrage is a relatively recent event, and in that book he was still "duped" into thinking that the horde was the one responsible for the misterious sleep that was striking his kingdom.......
and that's as recent lore as you can get, nobody sugested that the horde was responsible, and yet he came to that conclution by himself, now imagine if someone actually sugested him that the horde did it? I agree that the black dragons won't send a disguised agent to stormwind to try and lie and manipulate varian, since now that his 2 halfs have merged, and he has his son at his side, he can't be mindcontrolled as easily as he was in the past.
so on that part, we agree that the dragons won't send a new "katrana" as that would be an epic fail, but the black dragons could plant fake evidence pointing at the horde after an atack, since after all, making tabards with the horde insignia isn't hard, making silvermoon banners isn't hard either.
this was a tactic used by that other orc/draenei hybrid on nagrand (lanthesor of the blade) who managed to pit shadowcouncil orcs and ogres at war with each other.
by planting orc corpses and shadowcouncil banners into the ogre base, and then ordering us to kill ogres.
and ordering us to kill orcs of the shadow council and plant ogre banners on them.
that's a tactic old as dirt, and it has worked in the past with leaders that are quick to jump to conclutions, and varian has made a habit of jumping to conclutions in the past. (4 times if my memory serves)
Edit: BTW sorry for the offtopic ,but stormrage takes place AFTER the fall of the lich king? or before?
Post by
Adamsm
After the fall; but that's the thing, no one except for the Night Elf druids 'know' what is going on, and since Fandral is being used by the Nightmare Lord he's not telling them the truth. Yes, Varian leaped to the conclusion that the Horde is responsible, but the Wrathgate is still 'recent' on everyone's minds, and seeing a mist going through the land... considering what the other smoke did.....
Also, as said in topics on Stormrage, Varian works alongside the Horde to help fight back against the Nightmare Army, so yeah... he's not against them the entire book.
Post by
Rankkor
u know funden, I like this list, I'm a bit jaded that the horde section is so thin, so I'll help ya out developing it, I'll contribute to you with my own imputs about the pro's and con's about the horde races and horde leaders.
no one except for the Night Elf druids 'know' what is going on, and since Fandral is being used by the Nightmare Lord he's not telling them the truth
:P on theramoore nobody knew what was going on, and yet he leapt to conclutions there too.
I know eventually he fights next to the horde to combat the nightmare, but the danger is there, I'm not saying he's a total "bonehead" after all I did said that his son can manage to make him see reason.
but I am saying that on the right hands, he has a rather fatal weakness that can be exploited. In stormrage he eventually came to his sences, but that's because the enemy wasn't really looking to exploit his weaknes. if an enemy actually tries to, they can use his obsession against him and his kingdom. He should be gratefull that no enemy (yet) has tried it, but if I was an old god, or deathwing, I'd definily use that.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
Draenei would be less one-dimensional if Blizzard quit ignoring them on account of a few fanbrats whining. Ditto trolls (although I don't think you can blame fanbrat whines in that case).
Post by
Adamsm
He should be gratefull that no enemy (yet) has tried it, but if I was an old god, or deathwing, I'd definily use that.Aye, it's there... but then, your considering he won't listen to others; yes, I know Theramore is another example of that, but basing everything he's going to do in the future on two things is a bad idea, after all, in that line of thinking, you can expect more Wrathgates to happen, as Thrall is always willing to see the best side of people and trusts them.
Post by
Rankkor
I'm willing to give varian the benefit of the doubt (for now) but the diference in that segment about thrall and the wrathgate is that thrall actually has made something about it, placing the RAS on house arrest, and getting the UC under martial law.
not the best solution I'd say ,but meh, I don't like forsakens anyways, so let those bonebags squirm for all I care.
on the other hand (for now) I have yet to see a great tragedy happen to varian or his kingdom and him not imidietly poiting at the horde for it.
maybe u're right, maybe there is more than what we've seen, but I'm merely working with what we know. and after all has been said and done, in the end, there's allways that weakness that he just can't shakeoff, his tendency to use the horde as a scapegoat for every tragedy is kingdom suffers.
as if there wasn't any cult of the damned, shadow council, twillight hammer, burning legion, scourge, old gods, or elune's knows what else in azeroth determined to kill everythign and everyone.
Post by
Adamsm
Well, the Orcs and Forsaken over the other races; again, he's never said anything about the Tauren, Trolls, Blood Elves and Goblins(so far at least).
Post by
Monday
u know funden, I like this list, I'm a bit jaded that the horde section is so thin, so I'll help ya out developing it, I'll contribute to you with my own imputs about the pro's and con's about the horde races and horde leaders.
Thanks. I asked people to post their own, because to be quite honest I'm not as familiar with the Horde right now, which is why I also didn't do many leaders, I wasn't familiar with them.
Oh and the Gnome thing. Yes they are incredibly bright, but, like I said, they lack self preservation and common sense =P
And say whatever you want about Varian (not you Rank, this is directed at Tauren), but you keep bringing one fault up over that isn't true. You keep saying that Varian is biased against the Horde. But he isn't, just the Forsaken and Orcs. He's worked with Trolls and Blood Elves and Tauren before, along with showing mercy to Saurfang in ICC. So stop shouting that slander (no I'm not trying to defend Varian, I'm just trying to stop this tide, no flood, of misinformation and outright lies.)
Post by
taurenmoo812
I think then considering you admit you don't know enough about the horde, you can't assume to make statements about there leaders and there roles without some more insight knowledge. Let someone like Rank do that to even it out
Post by
Monday
I think then considering you admit you don't know enough about the horde, you can't assume to make statements about there leaders and there roles without some more insight knowledge. Let someone like Rank do that to even it out
I knew enough about the Horde to make some basic pros and cons, and you noticed that I asked for pros and cons? Why don't you give me some Tauren? And yes I know enough about Thrall to make some pros and cons about him.
Post by
taurenmoo812
I think then considering you admit you don't know enough about the horde, you can't assume to make statements about there leaders and there roles without some more insight knowledge. Let someone like Rank do that to even it out
I knew enough about the Horde to make some basic pros and cons, and you noticed that I asked for pros and cons? Why don't you give me some Tauren? And yes I know enough about Thrall to make some pros and cons about him.
because it's like me making the same post from my pov about alliance and horde heroes, and only having some blunt facts about alliance heroes, it doesn't add up. Adding 'he does a better job the thrall does' on varians piece isn't productive, anymore then me saying on one about varian 'he never liberated his people, well thrall did', it just doesn't add up without being one sided.
Post by
Monday
I think then considering you admit you don't know enough about the horde, you can't assume to make statements about there leaders and there roles without some more insight knowledge. Let someone like Rank do that to even it out
I knew enough about the Horde to make some basic pros and cons, and you noticed that I asked for pros and cons? Why don't you give me some Tauren? And yes I know enough about Thrall to make some pros and cons about him.
because it's like me making the same post from my pov about alliance and horde heroes, and only having some blunt facts about alliance heroes, it doesn't add up. Adding 'he does a better job the thrall does' on varians piece isn't productive, anymore then me saying on one about varian 'he never liberated his people, well thrall did', it just doesn't add up without being one sided.
What can I say? I'm biased for the Alliance. However, the main reason I typed bares sentences was because my arms were tired =P
Still, feel free to give Pros and Cons.
Post by
Rankkor
What can I say? I'm biased for the Alliance. However, the main reason I typed bares sentences was because my arms were tired =P
Still, feel free to give Pros and Cons.
in a way we are ALL a little biased (some more than others), but if anyone says "i love both factions the same" that someone is a BFL (Big Fat Liar).
we all play the game, some of us stick to a single faction, some play both, but all of us tend to lean more towards a faction than the other.
as much as I try to stay neutral with the alliance, i just can't avoid ending up loving more the horde. That doesn't mean I hate the alliance, I just dislike their flaws more than I dislike the flaws of the horde.
as I said, I'll work on a list of pro's and con's of the horde races and leaders, and will post it here as soon as I have it ready.
but a little point here bro', Civilization is a relative term, are tauren more savage than humans just cuz humans live in halls of stone and tauren live in halls of...... well in tents?
being civil means being open to talk, to diplomacy, to be willing to solve your problems via other means that not necesarily involve violence, to show mercy to an enemy, to show respect for the other living beings. To have art, culture, litterature, traditions ect, in all these aspects tauren culture is as rich as human culture or gnomish culture or draenei culture. same goes for trolls.
in that way, creatures like trolls and tauren are as much civilized as humans and dwarves are, you can't just hold that as a con for trolls and taurens.
so what if they live in huts made of straw and bone, and taurens live in tents made of fur and wood? that doesn't make them any less civilized than humans and dwarves.
now an uncivilized race would be the burning legion, they have no art, no culture, no intelect, no diplomacy, nothing, all about them is violence, chaos destruction.......
an uncivilized race would be the troggs who are little more than animals. more examples would be kobolds who also lack civilization, same for murlocs and even wolvar.
but taurens and trolls are WAY above those in terms of civilization, so pl0x edit that out of the list.(and add varian's easyness to be duped :P even if with a more subtle set of words)
Post by
Patty
Another pro for the forsaken, whilst morally arguable, is that they are willing to go to any means necessary to slay their hated enemies. Case in point: Forsaken Blight.
Another con: little moral code.
Furthermore, could you reformat it a bit? It's pretty difficult to follow in places. o.O
Edit: the burning legion...no intelectReally? I'd class the scheming Eredar and backstabbing Dreadlords as highly shrewd intellects. After all, KJ managed to trick the orcs, Varithramas the forsaken etc.
Post by
HiVolt
Furthermore, could you reformat it a bit? It's pretty difficult to follow in places. o.O
Edit: the burning legion...no intelectReally? I'd class the scheming Eredar and backstabbing Dreadlords as highly shrewd intellects. After all, KJ managed to trick the orcs, Varithramas the forsaken etc.
I agree fully with both sentiments.
I'll do a little more work on the formatting if you want me to, Funden. Also, feel free to copypasta the human section into the OP.
Post by
taurenmoo812
■Orcs
■■Pros: Strong, but honorable.
■They helped save Azeroth at the Battle of Mount Hyjal
■They slew the demon Mannoroth, thus ending their blood curse.
■They reintroduced Shamanism into the general world of Azeroth and continue to keep it.
■They helped rediscover the land of Kalimdor and helped colonize it
■They helped the Darkspear trolls and the Tauren, saving both from extinction.
■■Cons:
■Brutal
■The first horde invaded Azeroth through the Dark Portal.
■The first horde destroyed their planet (Draenor)
■The first horde slaughtered the Draenei
■The first horde destroyed the Kingdom of Stormwind
■The first horde corrupted the Black Morass
(edited since the orcs of this generation now arn't accountable for what there parents did, its just old grudges that the alliance use against them)
■■The orcs are trying to get past all the bad things they have done in the past, but a lot more reparations need to be made before they can account for everything that they did.
■■Thrall:
■Pros:
■Wise
■Liberated his people and helped them regain there lost shamanistic ways
■Remade the Horde into the way it is now
■Most powerful Shaman on Azeroth
+ Fights for a lasting peace between both sides.
■■Cons:
■Indecisive
■Trusts too easily.
Edited some pointers where needed.
You should also do one for Jaina as she stands as a leader and ambassador for the alliance.
Post by
Patty
Well, what about orcs like Saurfang? They are accountable for what happened, and remember; the second war only happened about 20 years ago, so many orcs who are naturally 20 or above can theoretically be held accountable for the actions, as most infants were aged so that they could fight. Thrall is the exception, not the rule.
Post by
HiVolt
as most infants were aged so that they could fight. Thrall is the exception, not the rule.
I'm actually not sure on how well we'd be able to rely on this, though. We do know that younger members of the clans were aged at one point before the Draenor War. However, we do not know that they continued aging younger orcs prior to the First and Second Wars. It is reasonable to assume so, but not something that could be definitively proven unless given an official statement.
Also, I would think that orcs were only aged after they hit a certain age in their childhood(as happened with a couple of members of the Frostwolf Clan). Being aged from infanthood is likely an extreme, just as younger orcs not being aged would be an extreme.
But, as far as "this generation" goes, I think that would refer only to those orcs born after the Second War.
Still... saying that all those who are of X age are equally responsible doesn't seem to be the case, in my honest opinion.
Post by
Rankkor
Really? I'd class the scheming Eredar and backstabbing Dreadlords as highly shrewd intellects. After all, KJ managed to trick the orcs, Varithramas the forsaken etc.
humm bad choise of words, while the eredar and the dreadlords are cunning, smart, and brilliant strategists, the burning legion as a whole doesn't have any semblance of culture, art, literature, or civilization whatsoever, they exist only to kill and consume, that's all. They can't be classified as a civilization because they have never been civil. Sargeras and Kil'jaeden are the exeption of the rule because they allways offer the mortal races the choise of servitude vs anihilation, but the rest of the legion doesn't.
plus other than eredar, and dreadlords, the lower class demons aren't exactly smart, I mean when was the last time we saw an inteligent sentient non-animalistic felhunter? or voidwalker? or even fel guard? infernal? nope.
eredars and dreadlords are the exeption, not the rule.
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