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Various Pros and Cons of the Races
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Post by
taurenmoo812
(he sends you a letter in secret because he does't want garrosh's men to read it, someone in command would simply order the men not to read it)
The problem with that though is that Garrosh could simply have a well placed man intercept it, read it, and reseal it. Orders mean nothing to enemy spies.
Garrosh isn't smarter then Varok. Saurfang is a commander and leader, but knows how to come under the wire too.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Where is the Vanndar dying idea coming from?
it's a well established fact that lore-wise all Battlegrounds happen only once, I mean, you don't seriously believe that the defilers and the leage of arathor have fought over arathi basin for the past 7 years rite?
all the battlegrounds happened only once, and the winner is left to the interpretation of each player.
however, canon-wise there are 2 battlegrounds that DO have a winner established by lore.
First one is Warsong Gulch, on that battleground, the alliance won, the proof is that on the comics Varian assists the sentinels in winning that BG.
Second one is Alterac Valley, why? because BG's happened only once, and on burning crusade, a full year after the battle was over, Drek'thar was seen with thrall on Nagrand.
it's a moral lesson to take as well, on WSG the orcs were the invaders on ashenvale, and they were the ones who lost, and on Alterac, the dwarves were the invaders and they lost.
since the condition for victory was killing the enemy commander....... and since Vandar hasn't been seen anywhere else in the game ever since...... then tie the dots 1 by 1.
Island of Conquest is another BG that has as a condition of victory killing either Agmar or Wyrmbane.
since none of them have been seen again after that conflict (neither is seen outside of dragonblight) then we can't tell for sure wich one won and wich one died, however in cataclysm, if we see Agmar anywere else, that means Wyrmbane died, and vice-versa, if we see Wyrmbane then Agmar died.
fair is fair, canon-wise the alliance won 1 and the horde won 1. In both cases, the invading team lost.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Aye, you can win by resources running out as well; it's entirely possible that both Drek and Vann are still alive out there, and it's possible Rank that Drek and the Wolves lost, and that might be the reason you see him in Nagrand with Thrall; the Wolves are seeing if it's possible to go home.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
while I am willing to admit that it's true that the stormpikes could had lost without vandar getting killed, this part is completely false.
and it's possible Rank that Drek and the Wolves lost, and that might be the reason you see him in Nagrand with Thrall; the Wolves are seeing if it's possible to go home.
remember what I said 3 pages ago:
I'll just quote it.
besides, you know Drek'thar, he did't left when his warchief asked him to, why would he leave if an enemy orders him to do so?
remember what I said about orcs man, orcs are STUBBORN, even more so than mules, and Drek'thar is old, he'd rather die than lose his lands.
the fact that we see him alive means the frostwolves and their village survived, the fact that vandar is nowhere to be seen means he's dead.
is fair bro'
so far even when blizzard has released several BG's canon-wise only 2 of them had their outcomes revealed, and they split them evenly, 1 for alliance 1 for horde.
alliance won Warsong Gulch, horde won Alterac valley.
and it's a moral lesson too, because on warsong gulch the invaders were the orcs and they lost for tresspassing into lands that don't belong to them, and in Alterac valley the invaders are the dwarves and they lost for tresspassing into lands that don't belong to them
fair is fair man =)
he wasn't in nagrand "to see if the wolves could come home" he was in nagrand to acompany his warchief into visiting his grandmother, and I'm fairly sure he wanted to talk to greatmother kashur too.
but the ancestral lands of the frostwolves is set, plus there is their monument to their leader and hero Durotan.
while Dwarves can find dig sites all across the world, for the frostwolves, there's only 1 place called home.
orcs are stubborn bro, remember that part, as that is one of the most defining qualities of the orcs.
I can admit that vandar "could" be alive, but the fact that the stormpikes lost AV is undeniable.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
I can admit that vandar "could" be alive, but the fact that the stormpikes lost AV is undeniable.Rank, when it comes to the BG's, nothing is undeniable.
Edit:
he wasn't in nagrand "to see if the wolves could come home" he was in nagrand to acompany his warchief into visiting his grandmother, and I'm fairly sure he wanted to talk to greatmother kashur too.
but the ancestral lands of the frostwolves is set, plus there is their monument to their leader and hero Durotan.Uh, actually, Nagrand is the ancestral homes of the Frostwolves; Alterac Valley was where they were exiled following the refusal to drink the blood and join in the over all slaughter in Azeroth; they've had the Valleys for at most 30 years. And he could have done a few things at once heh, it's not like he only needs to do one per visit.
Post by
Rankkor
7 years? No, its just been going on for a few years. Wars don't usualy end in a few months or weeks.
not months, or weeks, but remember that Battlegrounds aren't wars, those are battles and battles never last years.
the full war would be the whole horde vs alliance thing, and that has lasted pretty much 3 decades (with conflicts being pretty high on first and second war, almost dormant on third war, and now pretty high on the fourth war)
the battlegrounds happened only once, and by the time the next expantion is out, lore-wise those battles are over.
That was just one battle. If the Warsong Outriders were defeated, the Warsong would not be pressing deeper into Ashenvale and Varian would have no reason to trade wood for fur to prevent a war that is over and won.
pa pa pa, the warsong clan lost on WARSONG GULCH, the rest of their incurtion into ashenvale was won. they managed to send forces to east of ashenvale, but in the middle of ashenvale (wich is where the gulch is located) they send troops and lost. this is the reason you don't see orcish bases on the middle areas of ashenvale.
again this is a case of winning the battle but not the war. The sentinels won the warsong attempts into getting over the middle section, but they got to the eastern section anyways.
So just because Drek left the valley, the war is over? He can leave and put someone in charge until he gets back. He didn't say the war was over or anything on the way to Garadar.
he left 1 year after the battle, and as I said before, while wars take years, battles don't. and what sort of general leaves the troops for a stroll if there's still fighting to be done? He didn't mentioned anything about the war being over in nagrand simply because the topic at hand was the mag'har orcs and all that.
I mean, varian didn't mentioned any of his adventures when you fight next to him on the battle for UC, does that mean they never happened?
Link proof or none of this happend.
=/ sadly darkton this is one of those cases where there's no proof to link, just as you can't prove the frostwolves lost (as there's no proof of that) i can't prove the stormpikes lost (as there's no proof of that)
this is one of those cases of "who could had won" where only logic and speculation can be used.
only hard fact avaliable about BG's is that they only happened once in lore, unlike in-game where they have been going on for 5 years.
but as to who won, that is left for interpretation.
nothing more.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HiVolt
Did Blizzard say
anywhere
that any of the BG are ending?
I don't believe so. In fact, I wouldn't see the point of removing any of the BGs, especially WSG, as it's still very relevant.
Post by
Adamsm
Did Blizzard say
anywhere
that any of the BG are ending?
I don't believe so. In fact, I wouldn't see the point of removing any of the BGs, especially WSG, as it's still very relevant.
Of course, the new one is more or less just WSG redux heh.
Post by
Morec0
Did Blizzard say
anywhere
that any of the BG are ending?
I don't believe so. In fact, I wouldn't see the point of removing any of the BGs, especially WSG, as it's still very relevant.
Of course, the new one is more or less just
WSG redux
heh.
*shoots self*
Of course, that one has a few new elements (not many to actually be worth a BG, in my opinion) that sets it appart from WSG, though. Those being the asymetrical set-up.
Post by
Rankkor
Did Blizzard say anywhere that any of the BG are ending?
=/ bad wording on my part. let me put it another way.
game-play wise, BG's will still be avaliable, but lorewise those battles are over, they happened a long time ago and all of it is over now.
on cataclysm, you will still be able to queue for WSG; AB; AV; EoT; SoA; IoC; and the new BoG; TP.
but a game mechanic isn't the same as lore. on lore those battles (exept the new ones) are over, 1 faction won, and 1 lost.
The Stormpike dwarfs are very stubborn too
na, they place a higher value in survival (wich is of course a good thing) after all, when grim batol was invaded they left the place when it was clear they woudn't keep it.
orcs on the other hand, are stubborn enough to hold their ground even if it means getting killed, wich more often that not is a bad habit.
in fact, orcish stubbornness should be added as a con to the race in this "list of pro's and con's of the races"
Post by
Adamsm
na, they place a higher value in survival (wich is of course a good thing) after all, when grim batol was invaded they left the place when it was clear they woudn't keep it.Wildhammers, not Stormpikes/Ironforges; and that's the insane clan heh.
Post by
Rankkor
o_O really? I could had sworn grim batol was of the ironforge dwarves, after all on Day of the Dragon, a wildhammer dwarf (veresa's escort) fought the "cave dwarves" who were survivors of grim batol.
besides, grim batol (as proven by the screenshots of cataclysm) is an underground city, much like ironforge or shadowforge, what kind of wildhammer wanna live underground? if my dwarven lore knoledge is correct, all wildhammers prefer to live in high places, tall, on top of the mountains, no under tunnels digged on the ground.
Post by
Adamsm
o_O really? I could had sworn grim batol was of the ironforge dwarves, after all on Day of the Dragon, a wildhammer dwarf (veresa's escort) fought the "cave dwarves" who were survivors of grim batol.
besides, grim batol (as proven by the screenshots of cataclysm) is an underground city, much like ironforge or shadowforge, what kind of wildhammer wanna live underground? if my dwarven lore knoledge is correct, all wildhammers prefer to live in high places, tall, on top of the mountains, no under tunnels digged on the ground.
Originally, during the War of the Three Hammers, Grim Batol was the Wild Clans home after the split between the three clans. Those dwarves in Day were the left overs of Dun Algaz and Dun Modr, and were called 'hill' dwarves, as they came from the Wetlands area instead of Ironforge. So yeah, that's probably why the Wildhammers are one of the BG groups for the battleground there; trying to take there homes back. And Rank, all of the Peak is built inside the mountain, same as the other dwarven towns/cities.
Post by
HiVolt
Did Blizzard say anywhere that any of the BG are ending?
=/ bad wording on my part. let me put it another way.
game-play wise, BG's will still be avaliable, but lorewise those battles are over, they happened a long time ago and all of it is over now.
I don't think that this is quite the situation either, at least not for certain battlegrounds. Lorewise, I could see AV being over, as well as IoC and SotA... but the others
still
hold relevance to the lore as it is now, and as it will be in Cataclysm.
WSG, AB, and EOTS, all seem to be representations of fighting that takes place over the entirety of the zones in which they're supposed to take place. The fighting could still very well be going on there.
In fact, until official sources say otherwise, we can't assume that the AV, IoC, and SotA conflicts are resolved. Sure, fighting over these areas for X years seems unreasonable from a tactical/logistical perspective, but so was fighting over Jerusalem for nearly 200 years.
Post by
Rankkor
And Rank, all of the Peak is built inside the mountain, same as the other dwarven towns/cities.
well, then I don't get why all the fuss over the initial rumor that shaman dwarves were wildhammer dwarves that came to live in ironforge, a lot of people on this board (I'm not sure, but I think you were among them) said "no true wildhammer would want to live underground, they prefer to live in high elevated places, not underground cities."
the Peak is built inside of a mountain but it's an elevated mountain and the city is built at the top, not at the bottom.
Grim Batol is built at the bottom of the mountain it is located, and the city goes downwards not upwards (is that the right word?) so, at least from my point of view, it makes no sence.
since I said I wasn't entirely sure, I'm willing to admit it's their city ,but it goes against their lore that the wildhammers originaly had an underground town, when the mere tought of being in a cave is horrible for them.
In fact, until official sources say otherwise, we can't assume that the AV, IoC, and SotA conflicts are resolved
=/ wich is why I initially said that this was all subject to interpretation, sort of like that debate adams and I had about who could win in a fight, nobundo or thrall.
on a discussion like that, there are no proofs to be held, same goes here.
this is somethign I hate about blizzard, their constant habit of making stuff so ambiguous, and left for the player to interpret, because then, no 2 players get the same interpretation of what they see. they should stablish in lore what they make.
they made a BG about a fight on Swamp of Sorrow? cool, but on lore say who won plx, they made a BG about alterac valley? cool, but on lore say who won plx.
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