This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Prot Pally: A Comprehensive Starter Guide v4.0.1
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Elorivan
As a tank am I suppose to be useing that instead of Seal of Command? Also, why not get spiritual attunement glyph to help with mana?
Hatman555 answered the Glyph question fairly well. As for the seal,
o
(SoCom)-
(
Alliance
) is your 1-2 mobs/boss Seal, and SoCom is generally for trash - you'll get more threat/dps out of SoCom if you have 3+ mobs that die fairly quickly (30-40 secs or less).
Note
: This was a major change as of patch 3.3.
In
this
part of Theck's analysis on the Maintankadin forums he concludes:
Even at 30 seconds, SoCom is roughly even for 3 mobs, and slightly better for 4 or more. However, for packs that live longer than 30 seconds, you should feasibly be able to spread enough HV stacks around for SoV to win out. Again, that's assuming you're properly tab-targeting - if you're lazy, just use SoCom for 3 or more mobs. And if you're tanking enough mobs that you're going to have trouble maintaining the 5-stack on all of them (say 6 or more), then Seal of Command is the better choice.
I'm lazy when it comes to trash - tab targeting means another button I have to constantly be hitting, and I'd rather just change my seal before/after a boss fight.
Edit: Sticky vote! Or rather, A link in the Helpful threads post
No. Why sticky a post with false / bad information?
Agreed. Sorry but the guide needs a lot of work OR to be renamed to a "starting tanking guide"
Hat & kuinkitty - I try to fix what's broken. I'm working on the gems section, and I'm re-specing into
tonight (I still don't like the idea of being the raid security blanket, but we'll see how it goes). Aside from those parts of my posts, what is false/bad info?
Post by
hatman555
Hat & kuinkitty - I try to fix what's broken. I'm working on the gems section, and I'm re-specing into
tonight (I still don't like the idea of being the raid security blanket, but we'll see how it goes). Aside from those parts of my posts, what is false/bad info?
I guess when I said it needed a lot of work, was more applicable to when it first came out. I will give it another read and give you a long post on more things that need to address but didn't want to type up.
Oh, and as for respecing dude. Do what you want. But in your guide, you need to treat everything fairly, even the stuff you hate. I always have that problem with SoC for tanking. I don't like it for tanking, i wouldn't support it for any tank in any tanking situation. But it doesn't mean that its not good. (i love in for ret tho, omg numbers!)
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
312504
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pezz
Expertise is also migitation on bosses that are parry-hasted. What? Check more here:
Link
.
Which, to play devil's advocate, I have to point out is only two of them, including LDW, so more like one and a half.
Post by
602074
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pezz
Judgment doesn't matter that much. Light if no one else is judging anything, since as a protection paladin you shouldn't need the extra mana from JoW. Otherwise if there's another paladin just communicate so you get both of them up.
Post by
40215
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
602074
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svirve
o - Recommended. More hits = more threat. You should be using (Alliance) while tanking. 10 Expertise is a rather large chunk, and reduces a mobs chance of
blocking
/parrying an attack.
That's dodging/parrying not blocking/parrying
o (RF)- ALWAYS have this active while tanking. Without this, you're only a little better than dps, threat-wise.
You're worse than a dps. None of our abilities have built-in threat modifiers.
o (JoW) - This is decent means of mana return, and compared to your other Judgements, it's the most viable for tanking.
Once you start raiding regularly JoL is to be favored, mana is pretty much never an issue as a tank unless you vastly outgear the content and then you just have to pull more.
The extra 2% hp to your entire raid ~75% of the time they hit a mob is worth way more.
o (Bubble) - The "bubble." This should be used very judiciously. Rarely, if ever, should you let it run it's full duration while tanking. This can be used to remove various debuffs, and for a second or two to avoid extremely large amounts of incoming damage. I recommend key-binding a macro like the one below, which will cancel the bubble if it's already active, and cast it if possible.
You should mention divine protection as well since it's really to be favored over bubble for incoming damage and oh ^&*! moments.
You should also mention that using bubble will temporarely remove the player from the threat table since you become immune.
Gearing
There are two main styles when gearing a tank - mitigation and avoidance. Mitigation tanks are tanks who stack health and block, reducing incoming damage and allowing them to take a larger # of hits. Avoidance tanks stack dodge and parry, preferring to avoid attacks altogether.
Paladins generally have more base avoidance than other tanking classes, though that doesn't mean you should go the avoidance route. An ideal build is probably an avoidance/mitigation hybrid. You can be an effective tank stacking only stamina, or stacking only dodge, but that doesn't mean you should. The choice is yours, though I recommend a hybrid gearing strategy - matching sockets and optimizing gems/enchants.
First of all, you have to right to your oppinion.
Secondly, the way the game is designed at the moment, stacking stamina endlessly is optimal.
Sad but true.
Whichever way you decide to gear, your first priority is to get "def capped" - getting your defense value (not rating) above 540. It should be noted that defense is still valuable past 540, as it still contributes to
dodge, block and parry
.
And miss.
o Expertise is useful, but don't go out of your way for it. You'll already have 16 expertise from talents/glyphs, and there is a decent amount of expertise on most tanking gear.
Expertise is the best threat stat up to soft cap, after that it's kinda weak though.
Expertise also offers mitigation, since it reduces parry-gibbing (in some cases it's better than dodge).
Additionally, being a tank generally isn't a low-stress role. Raids depend on you to be in top performance, which generally means you need to constantly be optimizing your gear/gems/enchants and you'll always be using consumables, which can get expensive. Usually, tanks need to be more hardcore than their dps/healing counterparts.
If a tank is more "hardcore" than their healer, he's a dead tank. That's not very hardcore.
If a tank is more "hardcore" than their dps, he's a dead tank. That's not very hardcore.
A tank generally has to be less attentive and reactive than the rest of the raid.
Tanks have bigger health pools, allows for standing in the green stuff longer without dying.
Most encounters are designed to make the dps/healers move/switch target.
All healers have oh-#$%^ buttons to save the tanks, and since you always bring more healers than tanks, tanks rarely have to use theirs.
A tank doesn't have to watch the threat meter to see if he's being chased, he should be doing max-tps and it's the DPS's problem if they overaggro.
.
I didn't read all the replies since some are about as long as the guide.
So I bet some of this has been mentioned.
My conclusion:
You seem to have put alot of work in this, which is actually quite a shame.
Since some parts are misleading/false or easily mis-understandable.
We already have a bunch of similiar guides so this doesn't stand out. This doesn't mean it can't be considered a helpful thread though, just that you have a higher bar.
The formatting is sweet though, it has the looks of a good guide but unfortunately not the content.
I noticed you havn't edited this for 4 days. And you wrote it 5 days ago.
Take the time to read through the replies, check information/suggestions given to you in the replies.
If you bring it up a step with the content it
could
be worth a "sticky".
P.S.
I did read the replies now :< im booored...
The biggest reason to chose DS&DG is because of this:
/cast Divine Sacrifice
/cancelaura Divine Sacrifice
The best cooldown ever.
Post by
Elorivan
Made a bunch of corrections, accounting for kuinkitty and svirve's suggestions/corrections, with the exceptions of the gem/enchants sections. Should have that reworked by Weds. at the latest - after I've had time to play with a low hit rating (though I'm also going to try switching the
HotR
glyph for the
Righteous Defense
glyph.
... I've been useing wisdom for the past few days, since i saw it on here, mostly because I despise ooming during my fights, which happens quite often, though it does vary on the healer such as if I have a holy priest I tend to oom less, vs a resto druid, I would assume the solid heal vs HoT? Or is it wiser to use judgement of light instead?
Whether it's a solid heal or a HoT shouldn't matter. If you're going oom, the best option is to use
JoL
(I changed this from my original recommendation, and I recommend you change it too) and simply make bigger pulls so that
BoSanc
can work it's magic. Also, make sure you have
Divine Plea
up and glyphed - during heroics you should be moving quickly enough that it practically never drops off.
Post by
pezz
o (Bubble) - The "bubble." This should be used very judiciously. Rarely, if ever, should you let it run it's full duration while tanking. This can be used to remove various debuffs, and for a second or two to avoid extremely large amounts of incoming damage. I recommend key-binding a macro like the one below, which will cancel the bubble if it's already active, and cast it if possible.
You should mention divine protection as well since it's really to be favored over bubble for incoming damage and oh ^&*! moments.
You should also mention that using bubble will temporarely remove the player from the threat table since you become immune.
He did actually mention Divine Protection, just not in the case of removing debuffs, since it doesn't. I know on that trash leading up free frost badge lady, if the tank gets himself stacked up to 15 applications of the debuff, I just bubble him and yell in vent to find the debuff and click it off. The other tank can pick up his mobs, but I can't do 20k HPS or whatever it takes.
I do agree though that the whole 'mobs won't target you' is probably a good thing to mention to prospective tanks.
o Expertise is useful, but don't go out of your way for it. You'll already have 16 expertise from talents/glyphs, and there is a decent amount of expertise on most tanking gear.
Expertise is the best threat stat up to soft cap, after that it's kinda weak though.
Expertise also offers mitigation, since it reduces parry-gibbing (in some cases it's better than dodge).
LDW and Sindy are the only bosses in ICC that parry haste. So really, you could say that about one and a quarter bosses in ICC parry haste. Expertise is really not a mitigation stat anymore.
Also, I
think
, though I could be wrong, that 'there is a decent amount of expertise on most tanking gear' means that you should hit that soft cap without actively trying to, so you might be saying the same thing. I would still like to see it explicitly written out that expertise wins until the soft cap.
Post by
391794
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hatman555
I don't know.....
I mean the information is there. But it just doesn't feel right. No offense Elorivan, but I don't really know you. Don't get me wrong tho, i TIRED to get to know more about you. Looked into you more than just the normal person too.
---------
o
You're 12 posts fresh into the Wowhead forums, most of them are replies to this guild.
I hope to see more posts from you on other topics, and have those posts be valid thoughts and not just a link to this post.
o
You're sitting at 16 comments with an average of +2.4 Better than most....
o
Characters. Your tank still has terrible gemming. Both your rogue and your tank have seen almost none of 25 man raiding. No achievements in 25 man Naxx or Ulduar, and very few in anything else. No 25 man completion of TOC. Armory says you have only stepped into a 25 man raid 11 times on your tank.
For Current content you have 7 boss kills in 25 man ICC, 1 kill for each boss with Rot, Fester and BP.
o
Blog. You linked your blog in your profile, and I went to read it. You have the guide posted there as well. You posted it there 5 days before here, no changes or edits made to it on your blog yet. Plans for that soon?
You have a guide up for malagos, but there are no real tanking tips in it, In fact some of the information is just wrong. You yourself have only killed him once, and on 10 man.
---------
My final thoughts.
Most of this guide is verbal copy of previous guilds on these forums and others. You have good/creative formatting (getting complements from svirve = awesome). It shows that you took the time to actually type everything out instead of copy and paste. I'm sure you learned a lot about tanking simply by doing this. Even tho you clearly absorbed a lot about each guide, because of your lack of raiding experience, anything you talked about which is not a direct copy came from your gut feelings about tanking, and was most often wrong.
If you fix the gemming and enchanting section. I will vote yes for sticky, until then, I'm still on the No side.
Questions:
You have a wow blog, you took at least 20 hours of your time to write this guide. Why don't you raid 25 man? I don't see time being a issue.
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
svirve
He did actually mention Divine Protection, just not in the case of removing debuffs, since it doesn't. I know on that trash leading up free frost badge lady, if the tank gets himself stacked up to 15 applications of the debuff, I just bubble him and yell in vent to find the debuff and click it off. The other tank can pick up his mobs, but I can't do 20k HPS or whatever it takes.
I do agree though that the whole 'mobs won't target you' is probably a good thing to mention to prospective tanks.
It wasn't there before i mentioned it ;p
LDW and Sindy are the only bosses in ICC that parry haste. So really, you could say that about one and a quarter bosses in ICC parry haste. Expertise is really not a mitigation stat anymore.
Also, I think, though I could be wrong, that 'there is a decent amount of expertise on most tanking gear' means that you should hit that soft cap without actively trying to, so you might be saying the same thing. I would still like to see it explicitly written out that expertise wins until the soft cap.
Ah I was pretty sure that atleast the gear check bosses was also parry-gibbable.
And I concur, it should be explicitly written out, since after all it's a guide for starter tanks and I'm fairly sure most content before ICC is parry-gibbable.
To be honest I havn't given much thought into what is parry-gibbable or not, I just always assumed it atleast correct for the majority of bosses.
o
You're 12 posts fresh into the Wowhead forums, most of them are replies to this guild.
I hope to see more posts from you on other topics, and have those posts be valid thoughts and not just a link to this post.
My first 5 posts was consecrating your way to ding, it was stickied within 24 hours :)
For Current content you have 7 boss kills in 25 man ICC, 1 kill for each boss with Rot, Fester and BP.
About as much as I've done (I havn't played wow for almost two months though).
.
Don't judge the guide by the writer, judge the writer by the guide.
Post by
260814
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hatman555
Don't judge the guide by the writer, judge the writer by the guide.
Truth
Let's just help him out in correcting all of the minor details until it's perfect, and then sticky it.
If you fix the gemming and enchanting section. I will vote yes for sticky, until then, I'm still on the No side.
I guess its the Gemming and enchants that I'm the most stuck up on.
Honestly the biggest benefit that this guide is having is that its a good update. (once we get the changes in)
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
Elorivan
I changed the wording on expertise to accurately reflect what I meant about the soft cap, and added a few words about how it can affect parry-haste. I've also posted my re-doings of the gems/enchants sections.
In other news, the lack of hit rating cause by replacing hit gems with stamina gems is surprisingly unnoticeable. More stamina gems to come.
A whole bunch of stuff, again. =)
Hat, to answer your questions and give you a little insight into me:
oToons:
I'm converting my gems and enchants as I go. Unfortunately, I don't have thousands of gold that I can immediately drop into completely re-gemming/enchanting. The rogue on my profile is actually my wife's character - I played a rogue to 20-ish once, and then deleted her. I did change several (5 or 6, I think) gems last night, but for some reason the armory isn't showing the changes, or the ICC 25 kills I got last night. Hopefully that's just a side effect of the Tuesday reset.
o Blog:
I've updated the guide there a couple times, but because of the platform I'm using any corrections show up under the original date - it doesn't show a "last edited" date, or re-post the entire thing. I'm waiting to see what the next barrage of criticism reveals before I update it again - it's a bit of a pain to convert my Wowhead post changes into proper html for the site.
o Raiding:
Time isn't an issue, you've got that right. I've been playing for a little over a year now - Ulduar came out when I was leveling my first toon in the Barrens, and due to some unfortunate guild drama, I've currently found myself in the position of being a guild master of a guild that doesn't have enough consistent 80's to raid an all-guildie 10 man, but also has all of my WoW friends in it (and if we could get all the 80's online at the same time, we probably have the average gear/experience to raid Ony/Ulduar. We tried ToC once, and that was a disaster). I feel obligated to my guild, and until I've found a viable option that doesn't screw them, I've been pug-ing raids, ICC 10/25 usually with my wife's guild, which hasn't been able to put together a 25 man group for about a month now.
o This guide:
You're correct in saying that most if this is regurgitated from other sources. I learned to tank by reading and watching videos, and, as we can see from the errors in the original post(s), I still got a lot wrong. That's a big part of why I wrote this - I'm trying to give other aspiring pally tanks a resource that I wish I would have had. The other part of it is that I occasionally heal heroics, and I regularly see paladin tanks who have ridiculous talent specs, fail to hold aggro, and/or use seal of wisdom (no exaggerations, sadly), and it makes me feel like they diminish the paladin class as a whole. I love being a paladin - no other class in the game appeals to me so much, and it makes me sad when people fail way more than I do.
My first 5 posts was consecrating your way to ding, it was stickied within 24 hours :)
/bow
Don't judge the guide by the writer, judge the writer by the guide.
Let's just help him out in correcting all of the minor details until it's perfect, and then sticky it.
Thanks for both of those.
I gotta say, I really appreciate everyone who's contributed to helping me make this guide better. Thank you all!
Post by
hatman555
I gotta say, I really appreciate everyone who's contributed to helping me make this guide better. Thank you all!
GRRRR! why can you be pig headed like the others! Why do you take our suggestions and thank us! You making it very hard for us to hate you! =p kidding of course.
Like I said, the work is clearly present, and with the new changes that you've put in for gemming....I will /agree for a sticky as well. Nice work dude.
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
svirve
My first 5 posts was consecrating your way to ding, it was stickied within 24 hours :)
/bow
No need to bow, I regularly get kiss-ass here for my awesomeness.
As far as I'm concerned, I'll be wanting to do another read through before i put this in the helpful threads (doesn't hinder someone else from doing it though).
And unfortunately that wont be for another ~18 hours or so, sleep now and work tomorrow.
Post by
Elorivan
GRRRR! why can you be pig headed like the others!
Well, I suppose I can make my next thread something along the lines of "Hatman555: Why we hate you," or something similar, and we can make posts about how you're a know it all. =p Really, though, I appreciate the help cuz it not only makes me better, but hopefully helps a bunch of other people too.
No need to bow, I regularly get kiss-ass here for my awesomeness.
It was more of a /bow of respect than of sucking up, but here's a /punch so that the /bow doesn't go to your head.
As far as I'm concerned, I'll be wanting to do another read through before i put this in the helpful threads.
And unfortunately that wont be for another ~18 hours or so, sleep now and work tomorrow.
I'm in no hurry, man. More corrections mean more work for me, but that in turn means that this thread is more helpful to everyone, which is my goal, sticky or not.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.