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How do you atheists cope of the thought of dying into nothingness
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Post by
TheMediator
A person who is conditioned does not have an impaired mind.
No. Animals can be conditioned to do things, does that mean they have the logic and rational thinking that humans do? Not exactly.
The difference is that an animal won't of its own will overcome something that it has been conditioned to believe. A human can, unless it lacks the capacity of an rational human mind. In that respect, if someone can't overcome being conditioned on something, we say they lack the capacity of a rational human mind.
Post by
Skreeran
A person who is conditioned does not have an impaired mind.
No. Animals can be conditioned to do things, does that mean they have the logic and rational thinking that humans do? Not exactly.
The difference is that an animal won't of its own will overcome something that it has been conditioned to believe. A human can, unless it lacks the capacity of an rational human mind. In that respect, if someone can't overcome being conditioned on something, we say they lack the capacity of a rational human mind.Conditioning someone is rather easy, especially when done from childhood, and it does not mean that they are impaired.
Let's say I have two flags and a man. When I wave the blue flag, nothing happens. When I wave the red flag, I give him an electrical shock. I do this daily for six weeks.
When I release him at the end of the six weeks, he sees the color red and flinches. He has been conditioned to expect pain upon seeing the color red. It is not his fault, and he is not an idiot. He is merely a victim of conditioning.
Religion is often conditioned into people as well (note I said often, not always). Young children understand that their parents know more than them. They learn almost everything from their parents for their first years of life. When taught that a deity created everything as a fact, they accept it like any other fact that they are taught.
When raised in a community of gnostic theists, their belief is reinforced. No one questions it, or at least, the ones that do are a minority. Their role models (parents, friends) believe it, so they do to. As they continue to grow, it is made into an obvious truth, no different than gravity or magnatism. Thunder is loud, wind blows, the sun is hot, and God created everything. It's a fundamental part of their understanding.
It is for this reason that in most cases Muslim children grow up to be Muslim adults, Jewish children grow up to be Jewish adults, and Christian children grow into Christian adults. They learn it from their parents and peers.
It is conditioned into them from a very early age, and the conditioning is rarely contested until much later in life, and so it sticks. They are not idiots. They simply cannot help themselves.
I have observed children raised in both Christian households and non-religious households, and it is the same in every case I've seen.
Post by
TheMediator
Yes, every human can be conditioned. I agree with that statement. However, what I disagree with is that someone who is conditioned to associate red with electricity will continue to associate those together on the
conscious
level after your experiment is finished if they have a sound mind. I do not believe I will be hit right now if I were to say something negative about my grandfather. Perhaps I may subconsciously feel nervous about saying anything and may tense up when I think about him, but a rational person would not consciously believe they would be hit when they are not in his presence.
They can't help themselves
because
they are idiots. I'm not saying they are at fault for it, they just need to accept their weak mind so that they can perhaps gain from that realization in some way. Not every person who is brainwashed is unable to break free from it; there are a number of people who lived in very religious homes but were able to think for themselves and get out of that state of mind.
Post by
Monday
They can't help themselves because they are idiots. I'm not saying they are at fault for it, they just need to accept their weak mind so that they can perhaps gain from that realization in some way. Not every person who is brainwashed is unable to break free from it; there are a number of people who lived in very religious homes but were able to think for themselves and get out of that state of mind.
Once again, stop insulting religious people. It makes you look like an idiot.
I'm not saying they are at fault for it, they just need to accept their weak mind so that they can perhaps gain from that realization in some way.
So all religious people have weak minds? Try again please.
Post by
Skreeran
Yes, every human can be conditioned. I agree with that statement. However, what I disagree with is that someone who is conditioned to associate red with electricity will continue to associate those together on the
conscious
level after your experiment is finished if they have a sound mind. I do not believe I will be hit right now if I were to say something negative about my grandfather. Perhaps I may subconsciously feel nervous about saying anything and may tense up when I think about him, but a rational person would not consciously believe they would be hit when they are not in his presence.
They can't help themselves
because
they are idiots. I'm not saying they are at fault for it, they just need to accept their weak mind so that they can perhaps gain from that realization in some way. Not every person who is brainwashed is unable to break free from it; there are a number of people who lived in very religious homes but were able to think for themselves and get out of that state of mind.I still disagree. Conditioning is very difficult to break, and when your mind is so conditioned that it does not want to let go of what it "knows" it will fight to hang onto it.
I know many intelligent people who profess a belief in god. It's rather foolish to say that all religious people are idiots. Benjamin Franklin was a pretty sharp guy, and he was also a die-hard christian.
As I said before, I hate religion and what it does to people, but I don't hate all religious people. In some ways, I pity them.
Also, this is relevant.
Post by
TheMediator
Also, this is relevant.
Nice read.
Anyways, @ this comment:
Benjamin Franklin was a pretty sharp guy, and he was also a die-hard christian.
Unless wikipedia is straight up lying -
Franklin rejected much of his Puritan upbringing: belief in salvation, hell, Jesus Christ’s divinity, and indeed most religious dogma. He retained a strong faith in God as the wellspring of morality and goodness in man, and as a Providential actor in history responsible for American independence.
Believing in an overarching "good" force that nudges mankind along towards progress is hardly die-hard Christian. I'm not against believing in "good" (its difficult to argue against the existence of good and evil in the first place as it is mostly philosophical), I'm against believing in fantasy nonsense that has no basis in reality, like alchemy, breaking the laws of conservation, etc. etc. etc.
Post by
Skreeran
On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed a committee that included Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams to design the Great Seal of the United States. Franklin's proposal featured a design with the motto: "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God." His design portrayed a scene from the Book of Exodus, with Moses, the Israelites, the pillar of fire, and George III depicted as Pharaoh.
After the disillusioning experience of seeing the decay in his own moral standards, and those of two friends in London whom he had converted to Deism, Franklin turned back to a belief in the importance of organized religion, on the pragmatic grounds that without God and organized churches, man will not be good.
It was Ben Franklin who during a critical impasse during the Constitutional Convention, 28 June 1787, attempted to introduce the practice of daily common prayer at the Convention, with these words:
... In the beginning of the contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the Divine Protection. -- Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a Superintending providence in our favor. ... And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need His assistance. I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that "except the Lord build they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: ...I therefore beg leave to move -- that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service.
Post by
TheMediator
I may be misinterpreting, but from what I understand from reading that section, Franklin sees his fellow man (and perhaps himself at times, when he noticed his own moral failure) as an idiot who would run wild without something holding him back - and organized religion would provide that control over him. Not necessarily that he believed in the ideas of organized religion. I could agree with Franklin in a way - without some sort of religious sense of guilt drilled into the feeble mind of the average man, they might be persuaded by someone on along the lines of Hitler. I would prefer that people could think rationally and decide for themselves what they should and shouldn't, but it just isn't so.
Post by
Orranis
I'm not saying they are at fault for it, they just need to accept their weak mind so that they can perhaps gain from that realization in some way.
So all religious people have weak minds? Try again please.
Most people develop faith during times of psychological weakness, such as when a child or after a trauma.
Post by
Adamsm
I would prefer that people could think rationally and decide for themselves what they should and shouldn't, but it just isn't so.No one does that, everyone is influenced by someone after all.
Post by
Orranis
I would prefer that people could think rationally and decide for themselves what they should and shouldn't, but it just isn't so.No one does that, everyone is influenced by someone after all.
"Nothing of me is original. I am the combined effort of everyone I've ever known."
— Chuck Palahniuk
Post by
341987
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
341987
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
Unless wikipedia is straight up lying -
Franklin rejected much of his Puritan upbringing: belief in salvation, hell, Jesus Christ’s divinity, and indeed most religious dogma. He retained a strong faith in God as the wellspring of morality and goodness in man, and as a Providential actor in history responsible for American independence.
Do not believe Wikipedia, ever. Anyone can edit it and screw with it, and judging by how the author of that page used the term hell as if he was speaking to us shows that he or she was no where near an expert.
Instead of a massive and fast acting (and correcting) community of scientists, historians, theists, or whatever you want, we are to believe the sole word, backed with no evidence or reasoning, of a single anonymous poster who we can make near to no judgments on because he is near invisible on this forum and has made only 111 posts in an entire thirteen months?
Post by
Adamsm
has made only 111 posts in an entire thirteen months?Yes, because post numbers count.
Post by
Orranis
has made only 111 posts in an entire thirteen months?Yes, because post numbers count.
As you've said many times, reading comprehension. Because he's made a statistical 1/3 post a day, we cannot make judgments of his arguments or logic because he's all but invisible on this forum. So despite the fact we no pretty much nothing about him, were supposed to accept his opinion as hard proven fact because he said so?
For example, if HSR or Gorefiend made an statement with no logical backing in the direct statement, I might be willing to accept it because I've seen from their past posts they generally have sources and studies they can link if they need to. We know nothing about this guy.
Post by
HiVolt
has made only 111 posts in an entire thirteen months?Yes, because post numbers count.
Heh.
Post by
Adamsm
has made only 111 posts in an entire thirteen months?Yes, because post numbers count.
Heh.
I know mine are meaningless; but I guess somehow that adds a weight to an argument.
Post by
HiVolt
has made only 111 posts in an entire thirteen months?Yes, because post numbers count.
Heh.
I know mine are meaningless; but I guess somehow that adds a weight to an argument.
It was just too good of an opportunity to pass up. :D
Post by
Adamsm
It was just too good of an opportunity to pass up. :D
Hey, I would have been insulted if someone hadn't of done it.
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