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What's with randoms tanks lately?
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Post by
skribs
It seems whenever I queue for an instance on my resto druid, I end up getting tanks that just hit 80 that day, who are at 22-23k HP and have <440 defense skill. Now, I know tanks back in the day had 22k HP, but we also made sure to have 535 defense before heroics. I've been refusing to heal these people, but the result is a 30 min debuff. And then when I get back in queue, I get another nooblet tank!
They always have a friend that says "Just heal him lets go" so I can't get group support against the tank, but at the same time I am NOT healing someone who isn't defense capped. Anyone else running into this issue a lot?
Post by
Toldu
but at the same time I am NOT healing someone who isn't defense cappedYes! Druid tanks FTW! WooHoo!
Post by
adzicents
Suck it up basically, you're going to have to deal with it. You're just getting bad luck, I'm only ever getting bad tanks maybe 1/10 times, and he's usually kicked.
Post by
131584
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Post by
180239
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Post by
skribs
When I geared up my DK tank back in 3.0, I did not run as a tank until I had 535 defense. Nobody did. I don't care if they're at 22k HP (some healers won't run if they're under 30k), but it always had been 535 or go DPS until you can get the gear. You can carry low DPS (I do all the time) can't carry a bad tank.
There's a big difference between a tank with low gear, and a tank who failed at even getting the minimum stats for heroics. Yes, I've tanked in blues. No, I've never tanked anything heroic or above without being defense capped.
the fact that you leave group or try and kick fresh 80 tanks only perpetuates this problem. we run heroics to gear up, don't act like it's a chore to have people who don't overgear the content. you were fresh once too.
I was fresh, but I went DPS until I got enough gear to qualify as a tank. Yes, that was 21k HP unbuffed, but I was
defense capped
.
Post by
219211
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Post by
494341
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Post by
skribs
Hit cap and haste cap are different. You do slightly less damage or healing without those. As a tank, especially with lower health and armor, there's a much bigger chance of being gibbed if you're crittable.
A DPS missing once results in a loss of DPS. A healer missing a heal by 0.1 sec generally won't cause a problem in a heroic. A tank getting 1-shot will wipe the group. This is why all tanks will be uncrittable in Cataclysm, and why there is a tank shortage now.
I guarantee you that if not having X hit resulted in 50% loss of DPS, or if not having X haste meant the group will die, that tanks would do the same thing. But being crit, especially with <25k HP, is a much more real problem.
430 defense on a DK is not slightly undergeared. That is "I got 1 piece with defense and my runeforge I can tank lawlz."
Post by
Robotusch
Well all the overgeared tanks in your Battlegroup have apparently gotten all they can from Frost emblems alone. Enjoy.
My paladin certainly have. The only tank char I can be bothered to do random dungeons with, is my gimp warrior (~28k hp selfbuffed, 542 defense), and that's because he's the one missing gear at the moment. The retribution gear I need for my main, is going to come from the emblems of frost / random drops from ICC10HC/25N
Post by
Porcell
They always have a friend that says "Just heal him lets go" so I can't get group support against the tank, but at the same time I am NOT healing someone who isn't defense capped. Anyone else running into this issue a lot?
Aw, poor you. You might have to actually use more than 2 GCDs per pull.
Just do your damn job and stop crying about it. Or are you not a good enough healer to pull it off?
Post by
skribs
Have any of you who've been berating me actually played a tank? Getting to the defense cap is not hard - especially if nobody needs the drops and you have access to all gear triumph or down just by farming as a DPS. I don't mind tough fights, but I like it when it's tough because it's a tough fight or because we are doing a tough version (or overpull) on purpose. I don't like when fights are tough because the other player did not even get the required amount of gear.
When you go to raids, do you say to your tanks "our healers are good, so wear your T7 instead of your T10 and we'll just blame them when Festergut 1-shots you at 3 stacks." 535 was required in 3.0, I don't see any reason it shouldn't be required now.
Is this just some overraction by people who hate GS? Has it really gotten so bad where people are saying "5k GS or go away for Naxx" that now anyone who gives any sort of requirement at all (e.g. minimum requirements for the dungeon) is labelled a poor player because they expect people to go into the run with the same standards they had for themselves when that run was new?
I don't expect people to have 40k HP as a tank, be able to pull 5k DPS, etc. in the 3.0 heroics, because in those days it was done with less. I do expect DPS to be over 1400, tanks to be defense capped, and the healer to be able to keep the group alive if the tank pulls the normal amount and the tank/DPS meet the requirements above. Is that a bad thing? That I expect people to pull their weight at least as much as was expected when everyone was fresh 80?
Post by
Astygia
Aw, poor you. You might have to actually use more than 2 GCDs per pull.
Just do your damn job and stop crying about it. Or are you not a good enough healer to pull it off?
lol? You know better than this. Tank with 20k hp and not defense capped is dead on the second pack of 4+ mobs, doesn't matter how strong your heals are. Only reason they're not dead on the first pack is because you blew your cooldowns keeping them alive.
I've noticed this a lot lately, myself. I love healing, and brand new tanks I'm totally okay with, I enjoy seeing them aggressively learn their toolset and routine, which they can do comfortably because they know they have a strong healer behind them. That's what new tanks need imo, and that's great.
But new tank does not = totally clueless person that didn't even try to Def up, and queued as a tank because it's faster or because they wanted to try it, or whatever reason.
skribs: no it's not a bad thing to expect people to know their role. You've just had bad luck; happens to us all, and seen a heck of a lot of it myself when I queue randoms as heals or dps.
EDIT: To add to this, I'm guessing you been getting a lot of bad DK tanks. Believe it or not, most of the terrible ones I've had were Paladins, as opposed to the stereotypical terribad DK. Go figure.
Post by
486583
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Post by
Onijitsu
If you can't heal a slightly undergeared tank through a heroic you suck.
Someone who dinged 80 that day is most likely not "slightly" undergeared.
It's possible, but not necessarily common, that they may have already purchased some items to get them from level 80 to their tier gear. And, they are entering these instances with a lack of experience. I am just hitting the Northrend dungeons now, in my rising Resto Shammy... and let me tell you, it is a wholly different experience than it ever was on my Warlock.
---
To the OP:
I might have read somewhere that the LFG tries to pair better geared players with more poorly geared players, in order to even things out. (Because, a team of all poorly geared players is doomed to fail)
Either way? I feel your pain. I'm not to 80 yet with my Healer, but I have gotten plenty of incompetent, poorly spec'd, skilled and geared tanks on the way up.
However, one day, when I was complaining to my wife about this sort of thing -- she is a Tankadin -- she told me something which changed my whole perspective. "Yes, it'll be harder. But, you will learn far more, and develop much better skill, from healing a bad tank than you will from healing a good tank."
Since then? I can still get frustrated. It's a frustrating situation. But I also see it as a personal challenge, to see if I can heal through a crappy group. I have only dropped group once in the last few weeks. And that, because of the Tank's attitude towards others.
Post by
146010
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Post by
218246
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Post by
skribs
It comes in phases. I'll get 3 tanks who are 22k HP and 420-450 defense, and then I'll get 2 tanks with 40-45k HP unbuffed. Thanks for the support guys, that is thanks to those who supported me.
A lot of you are right - with high gear tanks not wanting to bother for frost they don't need, and with the gear balance feature, I am likely to get lesser geared tanks. But regardless of how the system works, nobody should be tanking without the defense cap, especially with dual spec and with how easy it is to carry DPS.
Post by
Rubendesmet619
defcap isn't needed at al imo. I tank heroics with my 2 2-handers out in berserker stance. Often I have 30k hp so...
I pretty much support what the others here said. If he has a bit of gear you should be able to keep him up by using one extra heal every pul.
Ofcourse a guy with 20k hp and tanking in full DPS gear...let him die please...
Not healing sombody just because he isn't defcapped is just stupid, I tanked KT+2adds(maintank stood in void zone...) with 24k hp and under defcap in Nax10 so...
Ow and I only get ToC25+ geared peeps in my heroics so far, no run took longer then 15min so far I think, but yea, I'm a DPS so :p.
Post by
219211
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