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What's with randoms tanks lately?
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Post by
564951
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494341
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146856
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Post by
Grikota
It seems whenever I queue for an instance on my resto druid, I end up getting tanks that just hit 80 that day, who are at 22-23k HP and have <440 defense skill. Now, I know tanks back in the day had 22k HP, but we also made sure to have 535 defense before heroics. I've been refusing to heal these people, but the result is a 30 min debuff. And then when I get back in queue, I get another nooblet tank!
They always have a friend that says "Just heal him lets go" so I can't get group support against the tank, but at the same time I am NOT healing someone who isn't defense capped. Anyone else running into this issue a lot?
I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that maybe IF you healed them they MIGHT be able to get enough emblems to gear better.
Maybe.... just saying...
Post by
Monday
defcap isn't needed at al imo.
I'm going to get flamed but...
For heroics it really isn't. With my tank set I've been non-def-cap (since there isn't a better term, I will refer to it as the cap) almost the entire time. And I do pretty good as well...
Not meaning to pat myself on the back or anything.
Post by
Zokudu
Half of this thread doesnt seem to understand the concept of defense skill.
each point you have decreases your chance to be crit by a percent. Hitting 535 does not magically make you unoneshottable. Being at 534 means you'll be crit once in a blue moon. and even then being crit in a heroic is laughable with todays gear levels nothing will crit for more then the 22k health a starting tank has and it will be a nonissue with a good healer.
Your overreacting if a tank come in in dps gear then yes they need to stop being stupid but if you see a tank in basic tanking gear and he is not defense capped so what?
If he has 489 defense will he instantly be one shot? No he wont and you need to get over yourself expecting tanks to come in with fully crafted level 80 set when dps comes in full greens and you can care less. Thats just stupid your capable of healing a tank who is not defense capped and just refuse to do it.
The base crit chance of any level 80-82 monster is a little over 5%depending on their level. If you pull 3 monsters of level 81 thats a 5.2% chance to be crit. At 1 second swing timers in theory thats a 15.6% crit chance per second which means in a perfect world they would be getting crit every 6.41 seconds. If you cant prep for a big hit every 6.41 seconds then you need to learn how to play better. And that with no additional defense skill. It scales and reduces the chance each point of defense they get. It possible to heal a dps as a tank in a heroic now and you cant heal someone in basic non defense capped gear?
Thats elitist.
The only reason we get uncrittable for raids is because bosses are built around us being uncrittable. They hit hard enough that twice normal swing damage can instantly kill someone. Heroics aren't built the same way and defense was largely important when heroics were "current" content only because healers couldn't pick up the slack that they can now.
Post by
skribs
I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that maybe IF you healed them they MIGHT be able to get enough emblems to gear better.
Or they could do what tanks have always done, and gotten the gear to get defense capped by getting the emblems/gear from running heroics as DPS. All 4 tank classes have DPS specs.
I hit 80 with tempered saronite, unenchanted.
I never let one group die and never heard a complaint because I am not retarded.
All i heard was "I wish all badly geared tanks were as good as you!"
There's nothing different tanking, dpsing, or healing a dungeon - same scripts.
You had tanking gear, at least.
That's WIN, the part about dps being hit capped. I think I will start doing that. I love how people saw OMG he only has 23k hp or so you can't tank nub GTFO L2P. 23k HP is more then enough for any of the normal heroics. People who say no are half-ass lazy healers.
If I see the tank under 30k HP, it sets off an alarm, but I don't immediately leave. If I see him under 30k, I'll ask "what's your defense skill?" If they refuse to answer or if they don't give the right answer, I refuse to heal. Really, if it was possible with very few heroics in 3.0, I'm not asking for a lot in 3.3.
Zokudu, you bring up a good point, except that if the tank does get critted (doesn't always mean 1-shot, there are times when you're busy healing someone else or dispelling something and the tank takes multiple hits before you get back to him) it makes a gib much more likely. Whereas (especially with CC being nonexistant) if a DPS misses, that just adds another second to the fight.
Post by
4516
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Post by
Astygia
Half of this thread doesnt seem to understand the concept of defense skill.
...
Your overreacting if a tank come in in dps gear then yes they need to stop being stupid but if you see a tank in basic tanking gear and he is not defense capped so what?
If he has 489 defense will he instantly be one shot? No he wont and you need to get over yourself expecting tanks to come in with fully crafted level 80 set when dps comes in full greens and you can care less. Thats just stupid your capable of healing a tank who is not defense capped and just refuse to do it.
Clipped the rest.
Clearly you're one of those that doesn't think more than 5 seconds ahead of your decision. If every pull in the instance is going to be 1vs1 (tank and one mob), yes of course that would be ridiculously easy. But how many instances are full of several 1vs1 situations and nothing else? Oh right, none.
The problem with being crittable in a heroic is that you're going to be taking the regular damage a tank would take anyway, then crits on top of it, multiple crits. First room of UK, gauntlet in UP, trash packs in AN, trash packs in OK... there's enough damage going out as it is, it's simply stupid to not meet the widely-known and easily-reached requirement for a tank. Will you be 1shotted? Probably not. But against 3 or more mobs a fresh, non-capped tank is simply going down.
I can tank heroics with my Fury warrior if I'm running with my guild, sure. Heaps of folks with good gear levels can make it possible. That doesn't make it the standard.
Thats not elitist. That's common sense.
The only reason we get uncrittable for raids is because bosses are built around us being uncrittable. They hit hard enough that twice normal swing damage can instantly kill someone. Heroics aren't built the same way and defense was largely important when heroics were "current" content only because healers couldn't pick up the slack that they can now.
Yeah....not. I've seen enough undergeared (non-capped) folks get gibbed by Svala, Drakos, and various other first bosses of various heroics to know otherwise. No, they didn't die in 1 hit, they died after my and their cooldowns were blown and they were still getting hit like a truck. Even better, H ToC, uncapped tank is not making it past the faction champs unless dps in the group is simply off the hook.
tldr: don't expect overpowered healers/dps to compensate for your squishiness and laziness, because it is not at all hard to hit 535 but damn easy to die without it.
Post by
Zokudu
Yeah....not. I've seen enough undergeared (non-capped) folks get gibbed by Svala, Drakos, and various other first bosses of various heroics to know otherwise. No, they didn't die in 1 hit, they died after my and their cooldowns were blown and they were
still getting hit like a truck.
Even better, H ToC, uncapped tank is not making it past the faction champs unless dps in the group is simply off the hook.
Higher defense does not magically make you take less damage which is the misconception here it reduces crits and increase miss chance. One crit in a fight is not going to make him impossible to heal. He was not getting hit like a truck because he was not defense capped there has to be other issues there.
Either way its stupid to expect a tank to spend gold on getting crafted gear to hit some magic number when perfectly attainable performance from quested greens and reg dungeon blues same as a dps or healer.
Post by
skribs
You essentially have 2 groups of people in a 5-man: the tank+healer combination to mitigate damage, and the DPS to deal damage.
1 DPS = <1/3 of the DPS done (once you factor in the tank), so it's easy to carry bad DPS.
1 Bad Healer can be carried by the others if its close enough. Faster DPS means you're less likely to OOM, and an awesome tank can make the encounter a breeze.
1 Bad Tank means a lot more. Bad tank means DPS is pulling aggro, whether it's because he loses aggro or he dies. This is a big step up in difficulty because a lot of mobs can one-shot cloth/leather wearers.
I've done raids where you have bad players in any role. The ones that we had the most problem with was raids with bad tanks. DPS is the easiest to carry, then healers, then tanks. Believe it or not, but some roles are a bigger crutch to the group than others.
Think about it this way:
If you're in a group with warrior, mage, warlock, hunter, priest (with the obvious roles for each, considering group makeup)
Mage, warlock, or hunter goes AFK. Chances are tank will continue pulling and say "catch up when you get back." Group is slightly slowed until DPS comes back.
Priest goes AFK. Warrior will stop chain pulling, but will likely single pull groups. If he takes damage, he will eat or wait for healer. Group slows down a lot until healer comes back.
Warrior goes AFK. Nobody pulls, group is on break until tank comes back. If anyone pulls, it is likely they will die unless they do a good job kiting, and it takes forever for each pull because your DPS are either dead or spend half their time running.
Higher defense does not magically make you take less damage which is the misconception here it reduces crits and increase miss chance. One crit in a fight is not going to make him impossible to heal. He was not getting hit like a truck because he was not defense capped there has to be other issues there.
Incoming spike damage is a lot different than outgoing spike damage. A spike that allows your tank to die is a lot bigger than one that means the boss takes 2% instead of 1% of his health.
Post by
Zokudu
I believe the quote goes
A good tank can make up for a poor healer.
A good healer can make up for a poor tank.
A good tank and healer can make up for poor dps.
A good dps can make up for...a poor dps.
If you consider yourself a good healer you should be able to make up for the faults of a poor tank. Lets face it did you even know they were being crit? I'll bet you didnt know they were defense capped or not. If they were in dps gear then yes there is an issue there but stating that someone in tank based blues and greens is incapable of tanking a heroic is just garbage and elitism.
I don't think tanks should be held to a higher standard then either healers or dps when entering heroics. A well geared healer can keep up a poorly geared tank and you need to get off your high horse.
Post by
skribs
If someone is at 430 defense, they are not in tank-based blues and greens. I am not exaggerating when I say I had 2 tanks in a row (one DK, one was a pally or war, can't remember which) who were both under 23k HP unbuffed and under 435 defense. Especially for a DK, who can get 25 from weapon enchant, that is pitiful.
A good tank can make up for a poor healer by mitigating damage further than what is required (e.g. good use of CDs, holding threat, better gear). A bad tank, however, who gets killed too fast to react (especially with multiple mobs, etc) is going to be harder to carry. It's the nature of the role which determines what standard they need to be held to. If I could, I would enforce everyone be at the minimum expected for a run (e.g. DPS being 1500 was a good benchmark in 3.0, tank being defense capped). Most people get above that easily with triumph gear, I don't see why it's a problem.
Post by
Zokudu
Well then your not a good healer now are you? Because I know of people who tank heroics in dps specs and gear for $%^&s and giggles and our healers have no issues with it. It can be done.
Just face it your lazy and had issues with 22k health tanks who weren't quite defense capped. Unless your battlegroup has an overabundance of morons who try to tank in dps gear which I have seen 1 person try ever which i honestly see as more unlikely then you just being a jerk.
Post by
146856
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Post by
Zokudu
Well then your not a good healer now are you? Because I know of people who tank heroics in dps specs and gear for $%^&s and giggles and our healers have no issues with it. It can be done.
Just face it your lazy and had issues with 22k health tanks who weren't quite defense capped. Unless your battlegroup has an overabundance of morons who try to tank in dps gear which I have seen 1 person try ever which i honestly see as more unlikely then you just being a jerk.
why should the healers do more work for the tanks if they can't gear themselves rights. My DK tank is in blues with a 2 lvl 200 epics I got def cap 28k hp easily. I am not here to carry people. Gear yourself right. You don't see me healing in dps gear or me dpsing in tank gear.
Why should tanks do more work to gain the right to tank heroics for you? If they're in tank style blues and greens and not defense capped yet I see no issue with you having to heal them. If healers and dps are allowed to do that why cant tanks. The double standard is ridiculous. I'm sorry if the tank cant carry you. Cry some more.
Post by
skribs
Would you let a
healer heal
in DPS gear? He's going to go OOM after 5 HL casts, and his FoL's are not going to heal much at all. You must be a bad tank if you can't tank with this person healing, because you should be able to carry him. This is the message you're giving me.
Why should tanks do more work to gain the right to tank heroics for you? If they're in tank style blues and greens and not defense capped yet I see no issue with you having to heal them. If healers and dps are allowed to do that why cant tanks. The double standard is ridiculous. I'm sorry if the tank cant carry you. Cry some more.
Because if the tank dies, the group will most likely wipe. If the healer dies, the group may wipe, but I've seen numerous times groups pull through with a good tank and high DPS. If a DPS dies, it just makes the fight go slower. Therefore, the person who needs to stay alive (which is also the person taking the hits) should be geared to a point where it's reasonable to heal him.
I also don't have a double standard for healers, although I do for DPS. Why for DPS? You have 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 DPS. If one DPS is overgeared and another is undergeared, it balances out. With the tank, there's noone to balance it out.
I've before refused to run with healers because of their gear. These are healers who walk into a dungeon in full melee pvp gear and wonder why we're dying. If you can't do something simple like get the right gear for their spec (and its as far off as that) then I'm not going to run with them.
Not to mention, you guys keep saying "tank style blues and greens." Can you explain how, with proper gear choice, you can get less than 40 defense skill using quest greens and instance/crafted blues? That's not tank style blues and greens. That's DPS style blues and greens.
Because I know of people who tank heroics in dps specs and gear for $%^&s and giggles and our healers have no issues with it. It can be done.
They are probably in gear that gives them 30k HP even in dps spec, and know what they're doing. I also bet they go in with at least a couple friends, so they know they have good backup. If they go in with a group that's geared for the content and plays with inexperience, they'd likely have more wipes than had they gone in with appropriate gear.
Just face it your lazy and had issues with 22k health tanks who weren't quite defense capped. Unless your battlegroup has an overabundance of morons who try to tank in dps gear which I have seen 1 person try ever which i honestly see as more unlikely then you just being a jerk.
Who's more lazy, the person who on his tank gets to defense cap before tanking, and then expects the same standard for other tanks; or the person who dings 80 and immediately queues for heroics as tank so he can get faster queues?
I've had 20k HP tanks that did just fine. They were defense capped, though.
Post by
biogoo
Heroics... lol.
I tanked all the heroics up to ToC5 (included) as Ret DPS. And in the ToC there were rogue + war. But who cares? Its just zerg.
Any fresh 80 tank should have at least the same amount of HP as I do, but also way more armor, defensive cooldowns and at least some crit chance reduction. Just heal them.
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173035
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146856
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