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Why do I defend Thrall so much? this is why
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Post by
taurenmoo812
As anyone on these threads know, I'm an avid fan of Thrall. So much so infact, that I often will join a discussion related to him if I think someone is going against him or his actions in lore, or if someone assumes something of him when they don't have facts to back it up. Often, I can even get aggressive about a certain debate.
I've gone through every aspect of lore about him, from lord of the clans, warcraft 3, every quest in wow, all other lore related to him, as well as his lineage, his father durotan, his mentor Orgrim and best friend Grom. and despite these characters remarkable stories, I am always drawn to him when it comes down to it.
See, I began with reading lord of the rings years ago, probably about 12-13 years ago, and fell in love with that kind of fantasy genre, the sword and sorcery type. And well I became a fan of lotr (its lore), there was often one thing that I thought of in the story, just.. how the orcs were in that story.
Now given, the orcs in lord of the rings have a far more savage quality to them then the orcs in warcraft or other genres, but, since then, I wondered if there was such a thing as a 'good orc', a savage hero type.
I tried getting into warhammer from there, but I never really got into that. I tried other games, and online communities, but nothing really sat.
Then one day I was reading a blog about world of warcraft (about 4-5 years ago), and thought it sounded fun, so I brought a copy, paid an account, and began playing. I began to get into the lore after that, and.. it was then I discovered how the orcs were in warcraft, and, as expect, Thrall.
Its like (not to make it into some big gushy opera) it all just fell into place then. I began to read up on him, his story, and it all came in from there. I ended up finding, this character, was want I wanted to find, years of actully looking for him, a savage yet noble hero to his people, who faught with such power but never losing himself to his savage instints (except at times of great lose).
What also made him so remarkable, was that in the face of his own peoples want for bloodlust and fighting, he would remain steadfast in not letting himself or his people lose themselves to there nature. He was an orc, but unlike any orc I've seen in any story or genre before.
And I can honestly say that, he is probably the most unique figure in the entire story of warcraft for that reason. You get lore people making light of the fact how he tries for peace when his own people want to fight, and that somehow makes him weak. To me though its the opposite, in that he retains that.
As Anduin Wrynn put it, he is extraordinary.
The genetic orc in any fantasy genre, is always the brutal savage type, who fights with or without reason, and is always seen as that, a savage brute. That in itself is why people might get frustated at the idea what Thrall represents, that he isn't that generic orc type.
Its also why, of late, I've grown frustated at the idea of whats happening in cataclysm. From the horde being lead by this extraordinary, wise, and deep character, to just being lead by some generic orc, which for whatever they design him to be, is what Garrosh is, its what Blackhand was, it was even what Grom was in the first wars, just your generic, savage orc who faught without remorse.
That they would take that away from the orc, as the best example that someone within the horde could rise above that generic character and be more, just seems to be dragging down the story to me. That is why I defend Thrall so much, why, despite the changes being made... arn't really changes at all how I see it. Its just dragging orcs back down into being your generic brutal savage bad guys.. at least from the garrosh pov.
Now, I've given my account of how I feel on this. you can tear it apart if you want, or debate it with some integrity, but thats just how I feel on this.
Post by
Skreeran
Yeah, I really like Thrall too, for essentially the same reasons. I like Varok Saurfang slightly more, but that's just my personal taste.
Although I would say that he is not perfect. WoW Thrall needs a firmer hand when dealing with his people. He could have prevented the Wrathgate, not to mention the human testing.
Post by
Monday
I like Thrall as well quite a bit, even though I am all
Dwarves
Alliance. Thrall is the kind of person I'd want watching my back...
Although
he's gotten lazy
he seems to be indecisive... which I see as a bad quality in Thrall.
Post by
Orranis
My only problem with Thrall is his lack of, not faults as Skree mentioned, but flaws. He just seems like a total sue to me. His only fault is that he's too trusting. I mean, what the hell? I think everyone has a little evil in them, in some perspective of something, and every good character needs that expressed for the "flesh" from fleshing him out to be sufficiently seasoned.
Edit: Which is actually why I like Garrosh coming into power. Because the idea of the noble savage had taken hold far too much, and needed some conflict. Some seasoning. I hate the idea of characters who are evil without reason just as much, you need a balance between the two. The only difference is what side has more rocks, as opposed to all the rocks on one side. Garrosh brings back the Hordes dark past and brings them to the conflict between tradition (not killing your leaders) and what is good for the people. I know, stupid choice, but from the orcs point of view tradition is incredibly valued. For some they would rather give up being an orc then give up tradition.
Post by
taurenmoo812
You know, I won't argue that down at all. In fact, I agree.
To me, because of the flaws Thrall has in having been indecisive in the last few years, it means that he isn't perfect, which isn't what I'm trying to say, but rather because of those flaws, it makes me admire him that more, seeing that like with the wrath gate, he realised his error, and took action himself to fix it.
Never perfect, but with some very human qualities.
For some they would rather give up being an orc then give up tradition.
Yes. and its also my point given across, in how Garrosh puts forward that generic orc trait that, in itself, I don't find anything that remarkable about it.
Post by
283679
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
and settled Org 2-3 years prior to BC.Uh no, it's about 5 years before BC.
Post by
taurenmoo812
If blizzard developed Thrall in cataclysm to be more like the character he was in warcraft 3, then there would be less point to argue here. You see back then, the horde were more as trying to survive in the world, the orcs trying to rebuild there shattered civilization, and the other races to rebuild themselves. They all act upon survival more then the alliance ever have done.
And in order for someone to lead a group as diverse as the horde to help them survive, it takes something whos not quite like any of them to see beyond the importance of his own.
however much to try to argue the point how you think things need to change, the reality is there has been no stop to the conflict between both sides, but neither has there been an all out bloodbath of one side wiping the other one out,
and there never will be.
So if someone is drawn up by the delusion that someone like Garrosh can lead the horde better then someone like Thrall, then there going to find just how unremarkable, and how pointless that idea is, and just where it leads to nothing. Honestly, does someone honestly think having someone making the horde into a bloodthursty war like race, will mean they beat the alliance and take all of azeroth.. if so that idea is so flawed its laughable.
Post by
HiVolt
Thrall is a great Warchief, there's no question about it. No one will ever live up to what he's accomplished as Warchief, short of killing Kil'jaeden. My only problem with it, is that he's not being portrayed as he was in Lord of the Clans and Warcraft 3. Sure, the Battle of Mount Hyjal changed a lot of things, but the Founding of Durotar helped reinforce the idea that there is still war to be found between the Horde and the Alliance.
It's just that Thrall doesn't seem as strong and commanding as he used to be, at least not to me. Hopefully that will change come Cataclysm.
Post by
Patty
So if someone is drawn up by the delusion that someone like Garrosh can lead the horde
better
then someone like Thrall,In what sense of the word, exactly? Garrosh and Thrall both have their faults but both have different strengths. then there going to find just how unremarkable, and how pointless that idea is, and just where it leads to nothing. Was this necessary, at all? Does it contribute anything to the discussion? Thought not. As I've noted, Garrosh and Thrall are apples and oranges. Honestly, does someone honestly think having someone making the horde into a bloodthursty war like race, will mean they beat the alliance and take all of azeroth.. if so that idea is so flawed its laughable.The idea that Thrall will lead the Horde into a sunshine, rainbow filled happiness with cheerful critters hopping in the grass and utopian bliss is also very flawed.
Post by
taurenmoo812
So if someone is drawn up by the delusion that someone like Garrosh can lead the horde
better
then someone like Thrall,In what sense of the word, exactly? Garrosh and Thrall both have their faults but both have different strengths. then there going to find just how unremarkable, and how pointless that idea is, and just where it leads to nothing. Was this necessary, at all? Does it contribute anything to the discussion? Thought not. As I've noted, Garrosh and Thrall are apples and oranges. Honestly, does someone honestly think having someone making the horde into a bloodthursty war like race, will mean they beat the alliance and take all of azeroth.. if so that idea is so flawed its laughable.The idea that Thrall will lead the Horde into a sunshine, rainbow filled happiness with cheerful critters hopping in the grass and utopian bliss is also very flawed.
Sorry patty, it it seems your the one whos completely looked the other way to what I have been saying in this.
Thrall, by any other account, is the most remarkable character in the warcraft lore, because of him being the outsider leading a race of people who would fall to there failings again, but because of him, haven't.
The excuse now being, that those wanting to see the warcraft lore change, which given yes things can be good to change, but they are just prepared to forget about all that has been done, and just buy into what they think could happen.
And I'm not wrong in what I said. If people honestly believe having a savage, brutal, brainless leader for the horde will somehow make it better then it is now, then they are just flawed in that opinion. And the clear reason why is the only method someone like Garrosh would have to making the horde stronger, is to kill all alliance and take azeroth as there own,
and do you honestly think thats going to happen?
no, didn't think so.
In peoples want for change they fail to see what they have, thats what it comes down to.
Post by
Patty
Sorry patty, it it seems your the one whos completely looked the other way to what I have been saying in this.How? You state opinions, not facts. You then try to refer to your opinions as facts.
Thrall, by any other account, is the most remarkable character in the warcraft lore
in my opinion
, because of him being the outsider leading a race of people who would fall to there failings again, but because of him, haven't. Not every Orc has Thrall looking over their shoulder. I've also bolded a very significant fix.
The excuse now being, that those wanting to see the warcraft lore change, which given yes things can be good to change, but they are just prepared to forget about all that has been done, and just buy into what they think could happen.Other players were unhappy when the Orcs stopped being bloodthirsty, and did not want Thrall to lead a happy race to perfection.
If people honestly believe having a savage, brutal, brainless leader for the horde will somehow make it better then it is now, then they are just flawed in that opinion.How so? This is again, your opinion. And the clear reason why is the only method someone like Garrosh would have to making the horde stronger, is to kill all alliance and take azeroth as there own,Not necessarily. Thrall has hardly kept an eye on his subordinates, has he? Need I mention the Grimtotems, RAS and Blood Knights? Garrosh
may
be able to keep his people on a tighter leash.
and do you honestly think thats going to happen?
no, didn't think so.You never know.
In peoples want for change they fail to see what they have, thats what it comes down to.Or other people want the change they know would happen, and disagree with your opinion.
Post by
Adamsm
Thrall, by any other account, is the most remarkable character in the warcraft lore, because of him being the outsider leading a race of people who would fall to there failings again, but because of him, haven't. I wouldn't go that far; Malfurion, Velen, Deathwing, even Queen Massive Ta-tas are just as remarkable as Thrall for different reasons. But you are a little close minded when it comes to Thrall Tauren, after all, your swearing up and down that Thrall had nothing to do with the Wrathgate, that it was just as much surprise to him as it was to everyone else... and that's not right. As others have said, Thrall is too trusting, even after being raised by Blackmoore; which seems even stranger.
I was also thinking of something else; on Draenor the orcs were very secular, as in they didn't care much about their neighbors(the Draenei) and in fact were leery of them, feeling their lives would be better off without the Hooved ones.... so why is it that suddenly all Orcs are suppose to play nice with the new Horde races? That's not how they were raised, and that's not what they remember from Draenor. Actually, thinking on that, that might be why Garrosh ejects the 'lesser' races from Orgrimmar; that's how he grew up after all, that the Orcs are superior to all other races no matter what.
Thrall missed out on a lot by the way he grew up, let's be honest here.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Firstly Adams, nobody said this is about the horde playing 'nice' like you assume I'm trying to say.
Also, yes, the first orcs on draenor were not soft or that big on community when it came to other races or clans, but they didn't become a murderous breed of savages or even warlike, until they were manipulated into it by the legion.
And I think your points mote. Thrall wasn't raised on draenor, but neither were any other orc after the first war. The first horde after all was an aberration, corrupt and brought nothing good from it. To set that as a standard doesn't make what the horde is now by any means the same, they are 2 different kinds of horde after all.
If you've been to nagrand and seen the way the surviving culture of orcs live, you'de see some reflection of what Thrall would want for his people.
Also, you raised a point concerning Garrosh again. Because Thrall was raised as an outsider to his own race, and had to learn there culture that way, this gave him a far greater perspective when it came to developing packs and friendships with other races apart from his own, because he too was once an outsider. We know the only reason the amani trolls were part of the first horde was because of necessity, well our current horde has developed a lasting pack with the darkspear and tauren (blood elves and forsaken more tenative).
Edit: Btw. for the sake for making this point. The argument people have against Thrall always seems to be 'he hasn't done much in wow'. If you stop and realise the fact that neither has any other major faction leader by comparison. Tyrande is still stood in temple of the moon, Magni has remained sat on his throne, Velen only appear once as blood watch, and again at the sunwell, less then other faction leaders, and Vol'jin hasn't done anything, except whats about to happen before cataclysm event. By those standards, Thrall in fact has done more as a leader then any of them.
Post by
Adamsm
Firstly Adams, nobody said this is about the horde playing 'nice' like you assume I'm trying to say.
Also, yes, the first orcs on draenor were not soft or that big on community when it came to other races or clans, but they didn't become a murderous breed of savages or even warlike, until they were manipulated into it by the legion.Right... but they also didn't sit around singing and laughing all day either... or are you conviently forgetting that the Blackrocks would drown the weak and sickly children at birth rather then have them grow up to be a drain on the clan supplies and food stuffs?
And I think your points mote. Thrall wasn't raised on draenor, but neither were any other orc after the first war. The first horde after all was an aberration, corrupt and brought nothing good from it. To set that as a standard doesn't make what the horde is now by any means the same, they are 2 different kinds of horde after all.Saurfang, Drek'thar, Brox... the list goes on, and those are all 'old orcs' who know the original ways and probably taught their children the same, and I'm not talking the Demon ways; hell you even see it in Lord of the Clans when Thrall talks to the prisoners, some of them speak of how it used to be before the Legion.
If you've been to nagrand and seen the way the surviving culture of orcs live, you'de see some reflection of what Thrall would want for his people. They live the exact same way as the clans did before the Legion corrupted most of the race; the Mag'har living alone away from the other races.
Also, you raised a point concerning Garrosh again. Because Thrall was raised as an outsider to his own race, and had to learn there culture that way, this gave him a far greater perspective when it came to developing packs and friendships with other races apart from his own, because he too was once an outsider. We know the only reason the amani trolls were part of the first horde was because of necessity, well our current horde has developed a lasting pack with the darkspear and tauren (blood elves and forsaken more tenative).Can't be that much if some of the orcs seem to support Garrosh and his plans to eject all non-strong races from the middle of the city. And I have to laugh at the round about logic there: Thrall wasn't raised as an Orc so he knows what's better for the orcish race instead of Garrosh who was.... And it wasn't a necessity; Doomhammer and his orcs saved Zul'jin and his people from the Elves and the Troll chieften realized the Orcs could be useful... same as Doomhammer saw them; it's pretty much the same thing as Thrall and the Darkspears; please, don't try to colour the past to fit your own view of it. As for the Tauren, not all of them must think as Thrall and Cairne, otherwise again, there wouldn't be Tauren who are following Garrosh.
The Blood Elves are up in the air; they are part of the Horde due to connections to the Forsaken after all. The Forsaken themselves are in the dog house due to the Wrathgate(about time in all honesty).
Edit: Btw. for the sake for making this point. The argument people have against Thrall always seems to be 'he hasn't done much in wow'. If you stop and realise the fact that neither has any other major faction leader by comparison. Tyrande is still stood in temple of the moon, Magni has remained sat on his throne, Velen only appear once as blood watch, and again at the sunwell, less then other faction leaders, and Vol'jin hasn't done anything, except whats about to happen before cataclysm event. By those standards, Thrall in fact has done more as a leader then any of them.Aye, which is a massive problem on Blizzard's side; I'd much rather have the true Tyrande leading her armies against the Warsong and tearing them a new one for continuing to attack Elven lands. I'd love to see Vol'jin get his homelands back(which is happening in the patch), same as the High Tinker. Magni should be leading an army to reclaim his daughter from BRD, even if she doesn't want to come home. Velen needs to be in it more, a lot more then he was, same as Lor'themar. And in all honesty Thrall has only done as much as Varian if you want to nitpick, as those are the only two we see active in Wrath(just saying).
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
437763
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Now, I'm not questioning the extent to which Thrall is a great character, but you yourself say that he has his flaws. You recognise this. However, it seems that you fail to recognise the effect that Thrall's weaknesses will have on other things; the significance of these weaknesses if you would prefer.
Oh of course. The same weakness that had the horde bet the Qiraji and C'Thun (retconned back in), that defeated Illidan and Kael'thas's forces, and beat back kil'jaeden at the sunwell, that battled the scourge and the lich king. Yes, Thralls horde must be having suffering from such weakness.
You seem to be making a false assumption based on what others say about this matter, that somehow the horde is weak because Thrall taught them to fight with honor instead of raging bloodlust.
Post by
Adamsm
Now, I'm not questioning the extent to which Thrall is a great character, but you yourself say that he has his flaws. You recognise this. However, it seems that you fail to recognise the effect that Thrall's weaknesses will have on other things; the significance of these weaknesses if you would prefer.
Oh of course. The same weakness that had the horde bet the Qiraji and C'Thun (retconned back in), that defeated Illidan and Kael'thas's forces, and beat back kil'jaeden at the sunwell, that battled the scourge and the lich king. Yes, Thralls horde must be having suffering from such weakness.
You seem to be making a false assumption based on what others say about this matter, that somehow the horde is weak because Thrall taught them to fight with honor instead of raging bloodlust.
Wow, never realized that the orcs alone fought against all those threats by themselves.......
Post by
Skreeran
The same Horde that allowed a Dreadlord to start a coup; the same Horde that tested a biological weapon on prisoners; the same Horde that allowed the Grimtotems to operate at will, regardless of the fact that they were guilty of numerous terroristic tactics; the same Horde that allowed the Blood Elves to siphon magic from a Naaru and maintain a thought police; the same Horde that allowed the Broken Front to happen and go unpunished and unapologized for.
Et cetera. Thrall isn't perfect, and neither is his way of running things.
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