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Will cataclysm kill tanks?
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Post by
woohaa
CAUTION WALL OF TEXT
if you've ever played a dk and tried to tank without your frost presence on...you take a #$%^ ton of dmg. basically that's what it'd be like for a ret paly trying to tank with a 2hander on. i think maybe for the first couple months you may see people trying to do it, but i'm sure after enough fail groups and posts from blizzard people will realize they can't get away with just being crit immune. I find it funny that all these people saying mages and tanks will be close in health don't take talents/masteries/gems into consideration. you'd think it'd be easier to think before you say something when you have to type it out first. but i guess some people just don't think at all. I think what you guys should be debating are the side affects of the changes. You can't kill tanking that's a huge part of the game...if they screwed it up it'd get fixed quickly.
PVP
will the changes mess with pvp? i can see warriors and druids not really seeing much benefit but have you thought that ret palies and any dk can easily put on righteous fury or frost presence and have reduced crit chance in pvp? basically it'd give them a dmg reduction prior to resilience. they'd have a slight advantage in pvp over other classes without even having to talent into it.
Class balance
In almost every patch 1-2 tank classes usually always come out way on top because of the encounters or class mechanics that make them a preferred tank class. with the changes to block and parry will the pure avoidance tanks become the more wanted tanks?
Druids dmg mitigation is armor and dodge. Since druids have way more dodge then the other tanking classes and dodge becoming the only pure avoidance stat will druids come out on top again and become the tank that takes the least dmg? or will they become the tanking class that takes the spikiest dmg?
dks have the 2nd highest dodge and probably the most parry of the 3 classes that can parry. the changes to parry will probably help reduce the dmg spikes that make dks hard to heal. i can forsee dks being somewhere in the middle...not the best and probably not the worst
with the change to block will wars and palys take more dmg then the other two tanks? or make them way more stable when it comes to incoming dmg.
with the changes to healing and the idea that they want healers to have to be more efficient with their healing then just overhealing as much as possible to keep everyone topped off. i can see wars/palys being the easier tanks to heal in the long run. However, since their saying they don't want tanks to be teethering on the edge of death 90% of the fight and your health pool should be larger compared to the hits you'll be taking just healing will be less. i can see a druid taking less dmg overall due to dodge and therefore being easier to heal based on a mana regen point of view. I guess in the end it comes down to how well Blizzard balances the overall dmg mitigation from armor/dodge/parry/block for the 4 tanking classes.
Post by
278451
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Post by
367590
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Post by
Adamsm
The New Mastery system is meant to help with the tanking talents, as well as Path and the other things. It's going to be nice that not every tank will be cookie cutters of each other and all have the same armour for once.
Post by
GameZoneIA
A Mage Thats Gonna Be Tank... Your Kitting Me
Post by
Adamsm
A Mage Thats Gonna Be Tank... Your Kitting Me
/sigh No, the tanks will be the same as the other classes do not have a talent to make up for that 450 D-rating to make them uncritable; like I said in another post: More stamina means nothing when the Boss turns and hits a dps for a 30K+ crit.
Post by
367141
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Post by
Kalyino
Yes, Cataclysm will kill tanks.
I'm already leveling a mage, who's going to be a tank.
I think i just lol'ed at the mental image of that.
But if that truely is the case then Cat is going to kill WOW much how i think they want it to, i mean SCO is coming out soon isnt it? Dont they want to kill WOW and bring people to that?
And as for killing tank's they keep talking about this "mastery" thing which it might just be me but i dont get it, or how it works, that will some how increase our stamina or something.
As to Retardians as tank, my tanks like half into that tree and the Prot tree to try out a more DPS heavy tank, as though i am def caped and stacked out the arse in stam, i can see it happening and as if we dont have problems enough with randoms and people not knowing how to play there class -_-
Post by
blowtorch
Just my 2 cents, with all the revamps being made how do we know that Righteous Fury isn't being rerolled into a talent?
That's what they'll do most probably. And deep enough in the tree, probably like how SotF is now.
Post by
517683
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Post by
Adamsm
As usual, people are overreacting. Nothing anyone says can fix it, short of Blizzard saying "We're wrong, community is right" which never happens, because Blizzard has their design concepts at the ready, while we do not. In this instance, Blizzard will always be right when it comes to design choices.
I'll give the fear mongers the benefit of the doubt for a moment. Assuming that the stamina nerf is as big as they imagine here, which I find hilarious because NO NUMBERS HAVE BEEN PROVIDED. "More in-line with other classes"
does not equal
mage has the same health as the tank. If this was true, Ghostcrawler would have said "Tanks will now have roughly have the same amount of health as cloth." Did you see that blue post? I sure as hell didn't. Stop the pre-empetive QQ and open your minds to what Ghostcrawler is actually saying, not what you are assuming he means.
Everyone exaggerates how bad things will be before release. The idea is to make health pools larger, make heals smaller to make mana management more important in order to stop the BURST-LUL-BURST healing where the tank titters between 100% and near death because of one or two large heals and huge boss hits.
Reality Check: The difference between a mage's health pool and a tank's health pool is roughtly 25k, assuming a raid buffed mage is 25k and the tank is 50k. There are druids out there who are pushing 60k+ health,
making them almost on par with a freaking elite mob
. This difference is about 100%, double the mage's health.
They don't want to see such a drastic difference between the two, so if a tank's health pool ends up being around 80k raid buffed in Cataclysm, then the mage might be around 50 to 55k. The difference here becomes 31.25% to 37.5%, much closer then the 100% shown earlier.
Blizzard is aware of the tank shortage and is working to devise ways to make tanking more fun. If you must be concerned, let me be about what Blizzard wants to do to make it more fun.
/end thread
your right but if a mage got 55k hp and i am only saying if and a good geared mage hits aleast 90% of his own hp than a mage can get crit like 49.5k i think thats not fun anymore than i kan 1 shot almost every 80
That won't happen; and even if the Mage got 55k health, so would everyone else, including the mobs, which means they can crit high and fast, killing said mage before the healers can help him. Tanks have talents/stances that are going to make up for removed D-rating so that they keep at that 6% uncritable rate, which is something no DPS is going to get.
Post by
woohaa
Masteries are basically gonna be passive stats you get for going deep into a tree. So basically if you were specced 51pts into prot you'd receive passive tanking stats.
example:
+20% stam
-5% reduced dmg taken
+10% dmg when wielding a 1hander.
+10% armor value from items
+15% str
+5% dodge
all the talents that give you passive tanking stats will turn into mastery stats. You only get mastery stats for 1 tree....whichever one you have the most points into. I'm not 100% sure but i believe the more points you have into a tree the more mastery stats you receive but i could be wrong on that part.
even with the changes to stats on the gear....without the talents and gemming for stam a mage won't have the same hp or the dmg mitigation to take hits from a boss. maybe from heroic trash mobs...but not from a boss. they'd like for him to not be one shot by the boss...but to take a 2nd or 3rd hit is not what blizzard wants to see.
the masteries is gonna be blizzards way of forcing players to get utility/fun talents. instead of getting every talent that either increases dmg or reduces dmg. they want people to get talents that are fun and hopefully will cause a more diverse group of players instead of a raid of cookie cutter builds.
Post by
179111
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Post by
366971
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Post by
Swinnytje
You won't be special anymore becouse all get the same amount of health bonus by stamina. SO WHAT! You will still have mitigration trough mastery (the new stat). And thats what it is all about right? Just prefending that DPS and healers won't get hit by mobs and bosses and so they can do their job.
So dont start think you tanks are going to be fully nerfed. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN...
Post by
508560
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Post by
Maulee
The obvious reason for getting rid of defense rating in terms of game play is that DKs and Druids get diminished benefit from the stat, which affects itemization in terms of jewelry and in the case of DKs, tanking plate and weapons too. DKs shouldn't be gimped because they get only partial benefit from a required tanking stat.
Things will likely even out relative to where they are now due to item budgets and reforging, although determining need for various items may become its own unique problem.
Post by
skribs
Maulee, I dont know if you quite grasped either the purpose of this post (to see if with the stat changes, tanks will even be needed anymore) or the reason why they got rid of defense:
They're removing defense because it's this stat that you must reach (unless the DPS are in very high stam PvE gear and the healer is overgeared) in order to make doing a run even possible. Let's say a DPS has 25% crit and is hit capped. A similar DPS may have 30% crit and have an 8% miss chance. That's a DPS loss of ~3%, which is significant but wont make or break the run (we're assuming we're not too close to an enrage timer).
Similiarly, a tank has an extra 10% dodge but no defense. He's fine, taking slightly less damage, but oh look that crit just 1-shot him! That's different than missing a hit and then making it up with an extra crit, you can't recover from a 1-shot by getting a string of dodges. So, more than any other stat, defense is of utmost importance. That's why in Cata, blizz wants to stop the defense juggling.
Post by
hemek
Lets see how it goes - I think it will be interesting - Stam being the same I am not totally happy with as I heard hunters damage is getting buffed...now if they have same stam and huge damage what the hell are you going to do if you are a melee class?
Post by
skribs
The
only
information that has been officially released on hunters is that they will now use a focus system instead of a mana-based system, and small stat changes. How you can assume they are getting a huge damage buff from that is beyond me.
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