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Will cataclysm kill tanks?
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Post by
hashmel
Back when I was a kid we had rocks and sticks, you wanted to be the one with the stick because once you threw your rock you had to find a new rock but once you broke your stick over your brother's head you had two sticks to hit him with.
No, rets won't be able to tank just by Righteous Fury granting crit immunity, they'd still have less avoidance/mitigation than prot and wielding a two-hander rather than a shield means no block or shield related abilities crucial to prot.
Post by
532871
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Post by
Rankkor
I just read the stat changes for cataclysm, and all I have to say is QQ-blah-blah-blah-QQ-buah-buah-buah-QQ-this-game-sucks-but-i-play-it-anyways-QQmoar.
jeez, would it kill you to wait untill we get solid numbers to run the math? to wait to see how the new mastery system on the talent-trees and the new mastery-stat hardwired into every piece of gear will affect tank-stats as well as HP on other classes? to wait and see how exactly are they planning to run the formula? to see exactly how large will the HP gap between Tank and DPS Will be? or to wait and see how large will the HP gap between plate-dps and non-plate dps will be? or to wait and see how the new customization option "path of the titans" will affect your toons?
my god...........
/facepalm.
Post by
Rankkor
What, exactly, would stop a Ret Pally from popping Righteous Fury, and declaring he is a tank? Technically the new 'tank' gear would actually fit in well with ret pallies, ret focuses mainly on strength anyway. And with the new mastery thinger, it would enhance the DPS a ret puts out, added with righteous fury, ret pallies would be insanely difficult to pull off of. And they would be more like DKs any way with parry and dodge, instead of shield block thrown in there.
Just throwin the idea out there. I have a prot/ret pally. And if the new defense rating really is just going to be righteous fury for pallies, I'm pretty sure you're going to enter the random daily and find a ret pally posing as a tank.
Gonna lead to a buncha problems I tell ya!
right......... because having a nice aggro generation and crit inmunity is all it takes to be an effective tank, nevermind dodge or parry or god-forbid block.
this is also why as a DK you don't really need tank talents, all you need is to hop on frost-presence and kaboom, u're a tank.......
(/sarcasm)
Post by
90985
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490983
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Post by
Maulee
Blizzard is aware of the tank shortage and is working to devise ways to make tanking more fun. If you must be concerned, let me be about what Blizzard wants to do to make it more fun.
/end thread
This is where you're wrong. You only notice it in 5 man pugs. In the raiding world, however, there is an over abundance of "tanks" and a shortage of healers.
these changes have absolutely nothing to do with the promotion of one playstyle over another. If anything, I'd be willing to bet money that the motivation behind these changes is a cost saving initiative in terms of data warehousing.
Post by
235201
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Post by
CaoimheX
Title should be changed to "Will cataclysm kill WoW?"Ah, now there's the rub!
Blizzard are making some sweeping changes, changes that hurt our understanding of the game. This is the cause of the drama. People don't like change, they like their comfy blankets of familiarity. We don't like having to learn new ways to do old things when our 'old' ways worked.
Post by
382219
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Post by
Skreeran
Okay, so I saw this thread this morning, but I wasn't able to post until I got back from school.
Yes, Cataclyms will kill tanks.
Post by
skribs
In one of the many blue posts, Ghostcrawler released some
quick, unconfirmed, made-up-on-the-spot
examples of what the difference between tanks and DPS looks like now and may look like in the future:
Basically, barring self-buffs (e.g. cooldowns, armor buff, etc) you may have an ICC geared prot warrior and a mage. The prot warrior may have 45k HP and 30k armor, and the mage may have 20k HP and 2k armor. If the mage is scaled up to have, say, 30k HP and 6k armor - he is still going to be 1-shot by something the warrior could take 5-6 of, but he's a lot closer than they were. In other words, right now the gap is very big - if they close the gap a bit, it will still be very big. It will help DPS survive AoEs a bit better, but it isn't going to just let a ret pally pop RF and go "I CAN TANK!" (although it would be nice should the tank die).
Also consider that in addition to the extra health and armor, tanks are going to have a lot more avoidance than a DPS will.
I love all the QQ I see, it makes me laugh. People see a change, and don't realize that the people making the changes are (most likely) going to change the other areas it affects. For example, all the warlocks on the o-boards complaining "But if spirit isn't on my gear, how will Fel Armor work?" Followed by Blizzard saying "Well, we're going to change the class too, those changes just weren't listed on this particular post."
Post by
48586
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Post by
383367
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Post by
skribs
Currently, a paladin can do what you say KDTank, and he would generate a lot of threat. But here's some facts:
1) Currently, they do so by popping into PvP gear (or really high ilvl DPS gear with a good/geared healer), which has enough resilience to make them uncrittable. Resilience will not affect PvE crits in Cata, so this won't work. Using tank gear would drop their threat further (while tank threat is designed to scale with tank gear, Ret's potential threat would drop as DPS stats drop).
2) Paladins are balanced around tanking with a shield. For example,
this shield
has over 8000 armor. A pally who drops that shield will drop from say 30k armor to around 21k (after talents). That's a significant drop. The DK is balanced around a 2H or DW, and Frost Presence makes up for that additional armor.
3) Ret is going to miss out on a lot of defensive talents, a defensive mastery, and defensive passive bonuses from going into Ret instead of Prot. Those will add up.
So yes, a Paladin
could
tank as ret if they geared like a DK, but it would be more like a DK wearing mail gear than like a DK with different spells.
Post by
367141
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Post by
423090
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Post by
skribs
Stefan, if he put up RF he wouldn't take criticals. Crit immunity will be by entering defensive stance, frost presence, bear form, or by popping RF. The issue isn't him being crittable - the issue is him having 8k less armor and no block (whereas a DK is designed with more avoidance and armor to make up for that) or using a talent build balanced around a 2H and trying to use 1H+shield to generate threat.
cant wait to tank on my shammy :)
Mail, leather, and cloth won't have defensive stats - bears get it through high agi/dodge ratio. You also won't have extra threat generation, taunt, or defensive cooldowns.
Post by
hashmel
I'm very skeptical of the idea of them putting tank focus on avoidance, high avoidance would cause bosses to hit very hard like in ToC which would cause the occasional instantaneous death which they just steered away from because it just didn't work out the way they'd hoped.
They'll do their best to force a balancing act between health, mitigation, and avoidance but most likely it'll be more along the lines of Health
>
Mitigation > Avoidance and focus on faster, smaller hits as apposed to slow 1h-ko hits...in most circumstances, there'll still be a Patchwerk here and there.
A ret wouldn't even compare to a Prot Paladin in Cata, sure if RF gave crit immunity it'd make a ret crit immune as well but they'd have significantly less health, mitigation, and mob control while also lacking shield-based abilities crucial for said tanking and add control.
Tanks are and will continue to be fine...except the one Deathwing got a hold of above.
Forum Tank says,
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Post by
KaptainKrunk
Will cataclysm kill tanks?
No, the bosses will.
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